New review system is live?!

[vovkaslovesnyy]

12 minutes ago, vibronx said:

I wonder what the success scores are... Probably something that will be incredibly stressful as well.

The main problem is that these scores for each gig will affect your overall performance (arithmetic mean). 
So, basically, you have to choose between deleting poorly performing gigs, or losing your level (checked daily). 

1 hour ago, emmaki said:

I think the time has finally come to turn on Request to Buy

I've already enabled it for the majority of my gigs, as well as increased prices for my basic packages. 

Edited January 30 by vovkaslovesnyy

[emmaki]

I also know - that's why I'm out the office so much. It sucks, but I cannot physically handle stress anymore (I can mentally, but it seems it doesn't work that way...). One troublesome buyer too many.

I'm wasting time here. I'm going to go and find out which department or man or whatever is in charge of the EU AI Act is. Then I'm going to share that on here and plaster it to the top of Reddit.

 

I would invite everyone living in the EU to do the same. And write to their local MEP too. 

I'd say if the EU needs a poster child or something to show how AI is damaging people's whatever, we've got it. It's not going to be that difficult to get it in the media afterwards.

Plus, there's no need for sellers to unionize. We apparently have diverse amazing talent here. What if we all worked, for free, with one another, to make sure that Fiverr heard us?

I'm not talking about whining on a forum. I'm talking about putting all of our skills together against Fiverr.

Anyone want to join me? If it goes well, Fiverr will be forced to change something and you'll probably get a nice bit of publicity for your Fiverr / off-Fiverr work. 

If it doesn't, meh, we tried.

Also this idea is a bit more effective than the usual call for unionization since we can all stay at home on our computers doing what we do anyway. #winning

 

 

[visualstudios]

1 minute ago, vovkaslovesnyy said:

as well as increased prices for my basic packages. 

Get ready for the value for money to drop!

[emmaki]

Oh, OK. They're going to make an "AI Office" which doesn't look like its ready yet. 

Gawd. https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/commission-decision-establishing-european-ai-office

Anyway, first things first. If we're to write to our MEPs, we should have a proper letter that details exactly what the issue is relating  it back to studies and how it may fall in violation of the prospective act. Then that should ideally be translated into various EU languages ready for any seller to send off to their MEP. 

At least that list exists:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search/advanced

This probably isn't the best location to start a "let's all get together and bother the EU" thing, is it? Anyway, I need someone with legal things and translators to help me draft the thing. 

[catwriter]

27 minutes ago, emmaki said:

that's why I'm out the office so much. It sucks, but I cannot physically handle stress anymore

Part of why I'm out of office so much.

Oh, and that lovely link with the info shows something else. 

Previously, if you lost your level (2, 1), you were still in the Seller Plus program. But now, if you're a level 2 seller and lose that level, you're no longer eligible for Seller Plus Premium, only Standard. And once you're allowed to rejoin, you will, of course, have to pay the latest price, not the one you first agreed to.

Or not. If I lose access to the program, I'm not sure I'm going to join again. I mean, if what I'm paying for can just be taken away from me because of Fiverr's level system that's designed to ruin our mental health (and, possibly, give Fiverr a good laugh)... I'm not sure I'd bother to purchase it again.

Edited January 30 by catwriter
mistake

[emmaki]

Well, I just sent this message over. 

 

That's not the full thing. The rest was a precis of how and why Fiverr is abusing AI, but not mentioning Fiverr (yet) since I'm banking on curiosity killing the cat to get this sent somewhere and get a response. 

I'll update if/when a suit replies. 

And yes, I realize some people would rather do things anonymously hence the silence here. I got one word for you: r/fiverr. Which I helpfully happen to be the moderator of. But I won't be doing anything there until the EU shows interest.

And yes, I do feel like this has been a bit hysterical. Also, I found this petition thing! Maybe I should have started with that.... oh well, whatever. 

@catwriter, problem with the health thing is young sellers won't feel it for years yet - and being young, they won't believe it will happen to them until it does. Also re: SP, I got the original deal (for the first 200 sellers) that's meant to be lifetime. If that gets nixed by AI, I'm pretty sure that's a violation of something or other. 

Anyway, step 1 in progress: try get the EU's interest and wonder if you did it all wrong. 




Blimey, the EU sure likes its checks and validations....

Edited January 30 by emmaki
EU! EU! EU! EU! EU!

[catwriter]

2 minutes ago, emmaki said:

problem with the health thing is young sellers won't feel it for years yet - and being young, they won't believe it will happen to them until it does

Very true. Older freelancers keep warning the younger ones about the burnout and what not all over various freelancing forums, but the youths don't feel it yet... Not until it actually happens.

I doubt that freelancing platforms care, though. It's not like they're going to run out of the young and the hungry.

[emmaki]

Yep, that's my story. But also the age-old story of "youth is wasted on the young". 

I hope your illness sucks less than mine 🙂 

[mandyzines]

1 hour ago, emmaki said:

Fiverr isn't really trying to look after the mental health (and potentially physcial due to stress) of those sellers. Does that sound a bit hysterical? Maybe, but there are plenty of studies out there about how gamification has harmful addictive properties.

That's what I tried to get across to @Yoav.M in our conversation about Freelancer mental health--to look at ways in which Fiverr's own operations affect it. Maybe that's not how corporate social responsibility actually works, though.

The walking on eggshells, saying-one-thing-and-doing-another, shifting goal posts, and hidden criteria resulting in negative consequences are things that happen in abusive relationships.

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

How can both these things make sense at the same time, since having a consistent 3/4 stars on value for money means you can't keep the 4.7 necessary review average to be at the top level? This is contradictory.

It's crazy-making, is what it is.

8 minutes ago, catwriter said:

I doubt that freelancing platforms care, though. It's not like they're going to run out of the young and the hungry.

As long as they project virtue, mistreatment doesn't matter.

Edited January 30 by mandyzines

[emmaki]

It's the same thing as when companies pretend to love rainbow people and other minorities for a week: pandering lip service to the zeitgeist without effecting any actual change. 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20230601STO93804/eu-ai-act-first-regulation-on-artificial-intelligence

Gamification of levels based on AI. The aforementioned direct warnings to Fiverr staff - and probable quite large number of sellers who have suffered health issues due to stress as a result of etc and who continue to be vulnerable (and thus forcing them to get out of work and income) due to ever-heavier levels of AI/gamification to avoid the cost of manual human oversight. 

Unacceptable risk? I'd say so. 

 

Edited January 30 by emmaki

[emmaki]

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20201015STO89417/ai-rules-what-the-european-parliament-wants

Some choice quotes (my highlights in bold, though note the article is old and gets updated): 

One of the reports focuses on how to ensure safety, transparency and accountability, prevent bias and discrimination, foster social and environmental responsibility, and ensure respect for fundamental rights. "The citizen is at the centre of this proposal," said report author Ibán García del Blanco (S&D, Spain).

===

On 20 January 2021, Parliament proposed guidelines for military and non-military use of AI, especially in areas such as military, justice and health. "AI must never replace or relieve humans of their responsibility," said Gilles Lebreton (ID, France), the MEP in charge of the proposals. MEPs stressed the necessity of human oversight of AI systems used in defence and reiterated Parliament's call to ban AI-enabled autonomous lethal weapons.

(yes, I know that's about military. But it is one of the overarching principle behind the act: human oversight)
 

=====
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20210414STO02010/shaping-the-digital-transformation-eu-strategy-explained

 

To ensure Europe makes the most of AI's potential, MEPs have accentuated the need for human-centric AI legislation, aimed at establishing a framework that will be trustworthy, can implement ethical standards, support jobs, help build competitive “AI made in Europe” and influence global standards.

Once approved, these will be the world’s first rules on artificial intelligence. Negotiations between the Parliament and EU countries on the final shape of the regulations are ongoing.

====

Once approved, these will be the world’s first rules on artificial intelligence. Negotiations between the Parliament and EU countries on the final shape of the regulations are ongoing.

(personally, I think other jurisdictions around the world will follow the footsteps of the EU's legislation)

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20211209STO19124/eu-digital-markets-act-and-digital-services-act-explained

(This is an act focusing on "online platforms" - so relevant to Fiverr)

The purpose of the Digital Markets Act is to ensure a level playing field for all digital companies, regardless of their size. The regulation will lay down clear rules for big platforms - a list of “dos” and “don’ts” - which aim to stop them from imposing unfair conditions on businesses and consumers. Such practices include ranking services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself higher than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform or not giving users the possibility of uninstalling any preinstalled software or app.

====

That legislation may not be relevant until.... March 2024 for Fiverr. Which does coincide quite nicely with the full launch of the rating system. Coincidence or conspiracy? It would also explain why I had that hideous spam email from Fiverr (Fiverr Solutions) which was effectively Fiverr affiliate spam for various products that you could get a % discount on if you clicked their link. Why Fiverr? I didn't understand that at all, but it might help you meet the "similar services or products", mightn't it? 

I'm going to stop banging on about the EU. Mostly because I want to play Medieval Rat Plague 2: The Rattening. (or Plague Story II: Requiem as it is more boringly called), but also because it appears that interest is low in getting Big Daddy EU beat up Fiverr's dad. With nunchucks and wild karate skillz. 

EDIT :https://www.euractiv.com/section/artificial-intelligence/news/eu-commission-readies-establishment-of-ai-office/

They agreed to something something the AI office today. Anyway, that article has a bit more info about what that place will do. Literally published 10m ago. I see this as a good omen. The timing, that is. 

Edited January 30 by emmaki
hot off the press (10m old) news: the EU AI Office is going ahead

[melissaharlowvo]

5 hours ago, katakatica said:

I'm also a bit nervous about having to keep a 4.7 rating when we are told that worse reviews are actually better.

For the first time since 2018 I fell below a 5 star rating on a new Pro gig. I only have 6 ratings because the gig was new. After this new rating system, I received a custom request and they insisted on a directed session which takes at least an hour. Plus editing and delivering the file. It was all amazing and I even added some takes of my own for free. It took hours to edit the file and deliver it how she wanted it.

I charged a directed session fee of $100 because this is VERY time intensive to conduct a directed session. I can make $100 in about 10 minutes so my value for the money was VERY LOW on my end as the seller. I proceeded anyway with a great and positive attitude. 
 

The buyers narrative review was glowing and perfect, but she gave me a 3.7! What? Ughhhh! Shocking! The value for service was average (3) So the challenge now is, my gig now says 4.8 and that is unacceptable for me and to be honest embarrassing in my Pro status. I even asked what I could have done to improve my work…and crickets. She even said she would be coming back. I don’t think so! No more custom offers from me. My public response was, “part of growing is trying to listen and foster honest feedback.”

So yes, this makes me very nervous! 

[uk1000]

3 hours ago, emmaki said:

They agreed to something something the AI office today. Anyway, that article has a bit more info about what that place will do. Literally published 10m ago. I see this as a good omen. The timing, that is. 

Though they talk about ranking and evaluations (which would be relevant to Fiverr and the search ranking and the levels evaluation system), the GPAI models stuff probably isn't related to Fiverr (though maybe slightly with Neo?) because Fiverr's AI systems won't be general purpose (ie. aren't meant to be used for practically anything - they're just meant for specific tasks, like search results ranking, or Neo is intended for buyers finding sellers (even though you can ask it any question so it might give a more general purpose answer then - especially if it's based on Google Bard).

Edited January 30 by uk1000

[emmaki]

You could be right - this stuff is really confusing and we're breaking new ground (including Fiverr) and the EU AI Act does seem to have an overall emphasis on protecting people from AI in various situations. 

Plus, there's this:

https://www.brusselstimes.com/837526/uber-does-not-make-the-law-eu-to-improve-working-conditions-for-platform-workers

The EU probably wouldn't mind another gig economy big tech scalp to add to its collection. God and its PR team knows it needs to be seen on the side of the "little man" more often. 

I don't believe a single comment has been made by any member of staff anywhere to any of the comments that people have made about this. That's pretty disappointing, and it just makes the whole transparency schtick more annoying. 

As for Neo, I reckon that it's not going to be seeing much use now as its too slow. I'm sure it'll get faster and more advanced with all the new data being fed into it, at which point it may well become the preferred way to search. I usually use Perplexity to search for stuff now. It's much quicker to get answers to questions without having to open 101 spammy SEO blogs, and yeah, the info might be wrong, but so might the 101 spammy SEO blogs. 

I'm also going to bet that in the near future, people who understand how semantic seo, nlp etc works will do very well with Neo after a few tests. It is an LLM/search engine at the end of the day. 

We're all on the precipice of a very uncertain future... 

Edited January 30 by emmaki
I added in okay guy to demonstrate exactly what most sellers will do in the next few months over the system - and of course, Fiverr knows this.

[edc_lab]

You know what? Sometimes, when I need to learn or study new things I put some visuals on the screen to help me figure out the situation in a better way.
So, I decided to make a simple overview of the new level system based on what I read so far.

In the following graphic, I designed 4 rating bars, where you can see, from top to bottom, the one related to a perfect score of 5.0, and below that you can see the required score for Level 1 (4.4+), Level 2 (4.6+), and Top Rated Level (4.7+).

On the "new pathways for success" page they said that a 5-star rating isn't considered trustworthy for most (I deduce) of the buyers.
They also wrote that the most trustworthy range is between 4.0 and 4.9.

So in the top left graphic, 0.9 represents the "safe area", while 0.1 is the "risky zone" for sellers having a 4.9 rating.

If we move to the right side we can see another graphic that represents the gap between two levels.
It's 0.2 between Level 1 and Level 2, and it's 0.1 between Level 2 and Top Rated.
So in the span of 0.4-0.7 points, a seller can move from Top Rated to New Seller status (or, apparently, the so-called Level 0).

In the third graphic, the bottom left one, you can see how much Level 1, Level 2, and Top Rated sellers can grow without falling in the "risky area" of a 5.0 average rating.
So, with the proper efforts you can jump from Level 1 to Top Rated, but at the same time, you need to be careful because if you offer a too good service you reach the 5.0 risky area.

In the fourth graphic, the bottom right one, you can see the sizes of New Seller Area (4.0), Trustworthy Area (0.9), and Not Trustworthy Area (0.1).

So my questions are:
Do the Top Rated sellers with a 5.0 rating appear more trustworthy than the New Seller level with a 4.0 score or not?
Is this "trustworthy issue" a real problem or was it just used to comfort people about the new changes?

I'm aware that when you talk about average numbers, the more you want to have a perfect score, the harder it is to get it, but isn't the 0.3 span between Level 1 and Top Rated too thin?
I know, there is a grace period before losing a seller's level and you can use it to try to fix it, but could this thin spread bring a sort of volatility in terms of people frequently changing levels?

Sorry for the long message, but even if I'm new here I want to understand if spending time on Fiverr to grow a profile is worth it or not because I'm always trying to offer the best service possible to my clients, and I guess for most of us, lowering our service quality to adapt to a new system isn't a viable solution.
I hope this graphic can help other people detect something we haven't noticed so far and make this discussion even more constructive.

P.S. The 5.0 rating bar is 500px long, so to represent a 4.4 rating I simply made a 440px shape, this means that the bars represent the actual sizes, gaps, and balances of the new 5-star rating system.

[jefftuts]

Man, this new rating system is absolutely ruthless.

The increased requirement to 4.8 to keep Top Rated Seller status, while simultaneously changing the review system so buyers leave 4.7 (and lower) more often is a difficult pill to swallow.

I'm usually not one to complain, but this is rough. Not sure how many sellers feel the same, especially those focused on maintaining TRS status.

[uk1000]

6 hours ago, jefftuts said:

The increased requirement to 4.8 to keep Top Rated Seller status, while simultaneously changing the review system so buyers leave 4.7 (and lower) more often is a difficult pill to swallow.

I think it's now 4.7 to be TRS. It says "4.7+ rating" in the updated TRS requirements section.

18 hours ago, edc_lab said:

So my questions are:
Do the Top Rated sellers with a 5.0 rating appear more trustworthy than the New Seller level with a 4.0 score or not?

They say (in https://www.fiverr.com/cp/freelancers-levels-ratings)

Quote

We want you to succeed on Fiverr without the 5-star pressure, so we're shifting the benchmark.

The previous rating system was dominated by near-perfect scores, making it harder for exceptional work to stand out. And research shows, ratings between 4.0-4.9 are actually more trustworthy.

So they're not necessarily saying that a TRS with 5.0 stars seems less trustworth than a new seller with 4.0 score, they're seem to be saying that the ratings (not the seller) are less trustworthy with if they have an average of 5.0 stars.

Quote

Is this "trustworthy issue" a real problem or was it just used to comfort people about the new changes?

I think it was probably a problem for them that too many sellers showed an average of 5.0 stars so it could be hard for buyers to find the really best (in their words "making it harder for exceptional work to stand out").

Though one thing they could have done is show the seller's average rating to 2 dp instead of 1 (eg. it might show 1 seller as 4.96 rating not 5.0 rating if they showed them to 2 dp, making comparisons between sellers easier since you'd be more likely to see different ratings).

Also it's probably related to the number of ratings you have. If someone has lots of reviews and no ratings <5 stars at all then it could look less trustworthy. The "trustworthy" for ratings is probably more like a curve rather than one being trustworthy and the next rating not being.

Buyers will also probably look at other things on the profile besides the ratings to decide whether the seller themselves seems trustworthy and that will help decide whether the ratings are trustworthy and realistic, and they could look at the reviews that show a image/document/video where the buyer enabled that or the live galleries to get a rough idea of what was actually delivered.

One problem with the old ratings is that buyers might have felt they were normally expected to give 5 stars for a normally delivered order (that wasn't too bad), mostly because they probably know the level system punished sellers too much for low ratings where they'd lose their levels. But now they've changed the rating system to make sellers get lower ratings without making the min ratings for levels low enough probably. (eg. recently it was about 4.2 (though in the past it had been 4.7 for each I think) and in the updated one it's 4.6, for level 2). But still lots of people will lose their levels because of this, and buyers might also feel pressure with the ratings they give if they know the high requirements of the level system. And a lot of buyers might now not want to give ratings if it gives more info on their purchases (price paid etc.).

Edited February 1 by uk1000

[leannelrivers]

3 hours ago, uk1000 said:

But still lots of people will lose their levels because of this, and buyers might also feel pressure with the ratings they give if they know the high requirements of the level system.

I'm not sure buyers have any idea how levels really affect sellers. I've already received a 4.3 after being marked down on value for money. Next to someone offering 500 words and full broadcast rights for a tenner, I'm clearly not value for money. As a Pro, I'm still cheap. This will only encourage the usual race to the bottom pricing and fawning to buyers. 

[Alex.M]

Is it just me or ... Fiverr thinks that 4 is bigger than 5 for some reason? 

[webcut]

1 hour ago, Alex.M said:

Is it just me or ... Fiverr thinks that 4 is bigger than 5 for some reason? 

Fiverr thinks seller should go under 5 star and buyer should always get 5 star.......

 

If there is a rule for us that we can't get 5 star, then there should be another rules that seller can't rate the buyer more than 4 star !!!

Fiverr Shocks, Seller Rocks !! Ha Ha

[priyank_mod]

39 minutes ago, webcut said:

Fiverr thinks seller should go under 5 star and buyer should always get 5 star.......

 

If there is a rule for us that we can't get 5 star, then there should be another rules that seller can't rate the buyer more than 4 star !!!

Fiverr Shocks, Seller Rocks !! Ha Ha

Ratings don't affect the buyers in any manner. Buyers don't get featured in search results either, with 1000s of other buyers. 

Someone with a lot of single-star ratings can still place an order and work with any seller. 

[priyank_mod]

2 hours ago, Alex.M said:

Is it just me or ... Fiverr thinks that 4 is bigger than 5 for some reason? 

Indeed until too many of us get stuck at 4.0😎 and then focus will shift to 3.0 to 3.9. 

[leannelrivers]

21 hours ago, priyank_mod said:

Indeed until too many of us get stuck at 4.0😎 and then focus will shift to 3.0 to 3.9. 

Random research shows that 3.0 to 3.9 star reviews are far more trustworthy than 4 and above.  

[sripra9007]

Instead of doing all these, a simple inclusion of a couple of decimal points (say 3 or 4 decimal points) would have made the profiles look more "trustworthy". 

Then it would look like

4.965

4.890

etc etc instead of showing full 5*

 

Edited February 2 by sripra9007

[edc_lab]

On 2/1/2024 at 10:26 AM, uk1000 said:

I think it was probably a problem for them that too many sellers showed an average of 5.0 stars so it could be hard for buyers to find the really best (in their words "making it harder for exceptional work to stand out").

Sure, but I think they wanted to remove all these 5 starts not only for trustworthy reasons but also to increase their service quality, let me explain why.

Later, all these 5-star profiles probably will be considered gems among many (beautiful) rocks.
Having a so tight span between level 1 and TRS will encourage many people to provide more and more to get reviews closer to 5.0 (trustworthy or not, this is everyone's goal, I guess) and dream about a TRS status.

So, what should you do if you want to increase your value for money and reach the desired TRS level?
It's easy, you need to act like that TV advertisement where initially they offer you pots, then they add knives, and after a few minutes with the price of 8 pots you'll get 4 pans, 12 knives, 24 plates, a smartphone, a television, a mattress and then you'll be like "oh, that's a great deal", that's value for money at his best.

So, if sellers put in 110% effort, and provide more than what the buyer is expecting, sellers have higher ("higher", not "guaranteed") chances to get rated as "exceptional" in the "value for money" tab (which I think is the real needle of the scale for perfect ratings).
This means that most of the sellers will work putting in more effort than ever, maybe because they want to recover the lost level or simply they want to achieve the TRS status.

Fiverr will benefit from this behavior because they will have a platoon of workers that Fiverr can be proud of and maybe use to show new customers/leads how good Fiverr is.
For them, it's all about the experience that customers have with Fiverr, not with the [insert seller's name] service.

If sellers lose levels because of the value-for-money rating they start seeing fewer clients because of the new downgraded level, well, that's definitely scary.
If they want to use this type of rating to lower all the 5.0 ratings, it's understandable, people will keep in mind that, but if this leads to a lowering in seller's exposure, that's a bit scary to be honest, because if the algorithm isn't designed properly, people could hardly recover from it.

And for that reason, if many people are worried about it and ask questions, Fiverr should reassure them by clarifying their doubts.
This is a working platform and they should keep in mind that they are playing with the financials of many people.
I really hope that they designed this update in the best way possible.