Official feedback thread re: the new leveling system

[smashradio]

4 hours ago, cucinavivace said:

"When I come to Fiverr, I'm looking for a deal." 
 

My response would be "We made a deal. You got a deal. The deal was X, as pointed out in our deal. So here's the deal: deal with it." (but I would have translated it into what I now call Fiverrian, which means you have to beat around the bush and be as corporate and boilerplate as possible. So it would be: 

"I'm delighted to work with you and I'm committed to delivering exceptional value, as outlined in our agreed-upon terms. I understand your desire for the best possible deal and are pleased to have provided services that significantly exceeded our initial agreement. However, it is essential to honor the specific terms and conditions we both agreed to, ensuring fairness and mutual satisfaction. Should you have any questions or require further clarification, please do not hesitate to reach out. I'm here to ensure your experience is not only satisfactory but exemplary." 

Or something like that. 

Of course, this only works if you state very clearly in your custom offer or gig description what's included/what's not and how you will go about everything. That way, you can simply point back to your deal and remind them about it. 
 

[cucinavivace]

22 minutes ago, smashradio said:

My response would be "We made a deal. You got a deal. The deal was X, as pointed out in our deal. So here's the deal: deal with it." (but I would have translated it into what I now call Fiverrian, which means you have to beat around the bush and be as corporate and boilerplate as possible. So it would be: 

"I'm delighted to work with you and I'm committed to delivering exceptional value, as outlined in our agreed-upon terms. I understand your desire for the best possible deal and are pleased to have provided services that significantly exceeded our initial agreement. However, it is essential to honor the specific terms and conditions we both agreed to, ensuring fairness and mutual satisfaction. Should you have any questions or require further clarification, please do not hesitate to reach out. I'm here to ensure your experience is not only satisfactory but exemplary." 

Or something like that. 

Of course, this only works if you state very clearly in your custom offer or gig description what's included/what's not and how you will go about everything. That way, you can simply point back to your deal and remind them about it. 
 

Knowing what to do afterward wasn't really a problem. We're just talking about the mindset, which seems far more common on Fiverr than elsewhere.
 

Edited March 26 by cucinavivace

[whildebrand]

15 hours ago, donnovan86 said:

Multi-quotes:

1.) Your idea: "If buyers don't spend a cent on Fiverr, the platform and its sellers would become useless."

That is correct. However, if sellers don't offer any services, any money spent by buyers would be useless just the same. Hence, both parties, sellers and buyers alike, are equally important. So I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this one-sided notion that only buyers are important. It's simply not true.  

2.) Your statement: "Well, we are not hired by Fiverr."

I'm afraid you haven't thought this through properly. You are, in fact, working for Fiverr. Maybe you want to hold onto the idea of being a freelancer, which is understandable, but you are not really a freelancer on this platform. Let me break it down for you (and, I may add, this in fact closely aligns to how most western legal frameworks define employment):

a) You get paid by Fiverr!
b) You invoice Fiverr at the end of the year after receiving a statement of earnings. You don't get paid by clients but by Fiverr!
c) You don't "own" any of the clients; Fiverr does!
d) Fiverr has a time tracking system, and you are expected to work regular hours. Fiverr lets you know exactly which tasks you have to complete and when. People who spend more time on the platform get promoted, while those who spend less time get demoted.
e) Fiverr has a bonus/penalty system to ensure you behave appropriately towards their clients.
f) There is even a clause in Fiverr's Terms of Service preventing you from advertising your freelance services on Google Ads for any similar services you offer on Fiverr. So you may not "freelance" outside of Fiverr in the proper sense of the term, similar to what any employer would demand of you. You can look it up in Fiverr's Terms of Service.
g) Most "Freelancers" on the platform actually have one major client only, which is Fiverr. 

There is a difference though, as other employers typically don't ask you to refund 20% of your wage to them.

Perhaps you could argue that it is part-time or irregular employment, but Fiverr is certainly not a freelancer platform in the classic sense of the term. Instead, it's more like a giant agency that has a lot of irregular or part-time employees engaged with Fiverr's clients in a competitive work environment.

You can leave the platform any time, but you can also end any other employment at any given time. 

If you look at how the EU (to name an example) differentiates freelancing from employment, the characteristics listed above from point a) to point f) are all major markers that point to what your status legally seen really is. I won't go into more details, but to say "You are not hired by Fiverr" is false on many levels.

3.) Reviews. 

Many of the things you mention regarding reviews may hold true for gigs that are small and have a high transaction rate. For instance, if you offer copyediting for $15 per order, and you complete 10 orders per day, then one bad review or one more revision is not a big deal.

However, if you have a major business website with e-commerce integration and possibly a significant website migration worth over $1,500, an order that may take a week or longer to complete, the situation quickly changes drastically. In such a case, the transaction rate is much lower, and every client weighs much more than in smaller gigs.

Just do the math: One out of four reviews a month as opposed to one out of potentially 100 reviews a month. One bad review can be irrelevant in the latter case, while one bad review can completely destroy the performance of your gig in the former case. It remains to be seen if the new system will actually bring an improvement here (judging from what people have stated above this could be the case). 

4.) Difficult clients.

Fiverr knows exactly which clients are difficult and which ones are easy to deal with. They measure metrics such as the number of revisions a buyer demands, certain keywords that come up in the message thread, and, of course, the very obvious buyer-side cancellations and refunds (to mention just a few metrics). Should these clients be weighted differently when they post negative reviews? 

Let's spin this further: What happens if Fiverr sees in your seller metrics that you are especially patient and good with difficult clients? Does the algorithm then shower you with tough clients? This is just one of many "fairness" related considerations that Fiverr will decide in their algorithmic alignment. 

These algorithmic decisions are made by Fiverr on a daily basis and should to be aligned with moral, ethical, and safety considerations (= AI Safety). If these principles are not transparent or made public to all parties involved, it is difficult to determine whether the system is fair. These principles also need to be balanced equitably, ensuring that the interests of both sellers and buyers are considered equally because both are equally important on the platform. I hope Fiverr succeeds and it is my firm believe that only a fair system will be sustainably and successful in the long-run.
 

Edited March 27 by whildebrand

[digital_exprte]

Can anyone mention how much time success score takes to update . i deleted one of my bad gigs to improve my success score but has not seen any change yet. can anyone confirm the time frame it takes. @Kesha

[marinanp86]

4 hours ago, whildebrand said:

1.) Your idea: "If buyers don't spend a cent on Fiverr, the platform and its sellers would become useless."

That is correct. However, if sellers don't offer any services, any money spent by buyers would be useless just the same. Hence, both parties, sellers and buyers alike, are equally important. So I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this one-sided notion that only buyers are important. It's simply not true.  

2.) Your statement: "Well, we are not hired by Fiverr."

I'm afraid you haven't thought this through properly. You are, in fact, working for Fiverr. Maybe you want to hold onto the idea of being a freelancer, which is understandable, but you are not really a freelancer on this platform. Let me break it down for you (and, I may add, this in fact closely aligns to how most western legal frameworks define employment):

a) You get paid by Fiverr!
b) You invoice Fiverr at the end of the year after receiving a statement of earnings. You don't get paid by clients but by Fiverr!
c) You don't "own" any of the clients; Fiverr does!
d) Fiverr has a time tracking system, and you are expected to work regular hours. Fiverr lets you know exactly which tasks you have to complete and when. People who spend more time on the platform get promoted, while those who spend less time get demoted.
e) Fiverr has a bonus/penalty system to ensure you behave appropriately towards their clients.
f) There is even a clause in Fiverr's Terms of Service preventing you from advertising your freelance services on Google Ads for any similar services you offer on Fiverr. So you may not "freelance" outside of Fiverr in the proper sense of the term, similar to what any employer would demand of you. You can look it up in Fiverr's Terms of Service.
g) Most "Freelancers" on the platform actually have one major client only, which is Fiverr. 

There is a difference though, as other employers typically don't ask you to refund 20% of your wage to them.

Perhaps you could argue that it is part-time or irregular employment, but Fiverr is certainly not a freelancer platform in the classic sense of the term. Instead, it's more like a giant agency that has a lot of irregular or part-time employees engaged with Fiverr's clients in a competitive work environment.

You can leave the platform any time, but you can also end any other employment at any given time. 

If you look at how the EU (to name an example) differentiates freelancing from employment, the characteristics listed above from point a) to point f) are all major markers that point to what your status legally seen really is. I won't go into more details, but to say "You are not hired by Fiverr" is false on many levels.

3.) Reviews. 

Many of the things you mention regarding reviews may hold true for gigs that are small and have a high transaction rate. For instance, if you offer copyediting for $15 per order, and you complete 10 orders per day, then one bad review or one more revision is not a big deal.

However, if you have a major business website with e-commerce integration and possibly a significant website migration worth over $1,500, an order that may take a week or longer to complete, the situation quickly changes drastically. In such a case, the transaction rate is much lower, and every client weighs much more than in smaller gigs.

Just do the math: One out of four reviews a month as opposed to one out of potentially 100 reviews a month. One bad review can be irrelevant in the latter case, while one bad review can completely destroy the performance of your gig in the former case. It remains to be seen if the new system will actually bring an improvement here (judging from what people have stated above this could be the case). 

4.) Difficult clients.

Fiverr knows exactly which clients are difficult and which ones are easy to deal with. They measure metrics such as the number of revisions a buyer demands, certain keywords that come up in the message thread, and, of course, the very obvious buyer-side cancellations and refunds (to mention just a few metrics). Should these clients be weighted differently when they post negative reviews? 

Let's spin this further: What happens if Fiverr sees in your seller metrics that you are especially patient and good with difficult clients? Does the algorithm then shower you with tough clients? This is just one of many "fairness" related considerations that Fiverr will decide in their algorithmic alignment. 

These algorithmic decisions are made by Fiverr on a daily basis and should to be aligned with moral, ethical, and safety considerations (= AI Safety). If these principles are not transparent or made public to all parties involved, it is difficult to determine whether the system is fair. These principles also need to be balanced equitably, ensuring that the interests of both sellers and buyers are considered equally because both are equally important on the platform. I hope Fiverr succeeds and it is my firm believe that only a fair system will be sustainably and successful in the long-run.
 

beautiful answer 👏👏👏
I have exactly the same opinion regarding the legal employment relationship with FIVER. And I also wonder to what extent they can harm so many sellers who spent years here and who today Fiver is their plate of food on the table, without having any legal repercussions...🙄

[marinanp86]

3 hours ago, digital_exprte said:

Can anyone mention how much time success score takes to update . i deleted one of my bad gigs to improve my success score but has not seen any change yet. can anyone confirm the time frame it takes. @Kesha

I regret to inform you that according to Fiver, deleting your problematic gig will not solve anything.

[donnovan86]

6 hours ago, whildebrand said:

So I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this one-sided notion that only buyers are important

Don't twist my words. Everyone is important, however Fiverr's focus is on making money and while new sellers join all the time, if buyers leave the platform, that hurts their bottom line. And that's the main thing any corporation cares about. Their income. If people don't spend money on your platform, you can have the best talent on the planet, you're still closing the platform due to loss of income, eventually, if no one buys stuff. Hence the reason why Fiverr focuses more on buyers and their experience.  That doesn't mean it's fair, but that's how things work. A company relies on having clients and people spending money. Sellers are a major part of the business, but without people paying for their services.. it's hard for a platform to sustain its costs and even make a profit. 

6 hours ago, whildebrand said:

You are, in fact, working for Fiverr.

No. Do you have a legal contract, paid days off and any other benefits that come from being hired BY Fiverr? Nope. You are using A PLATFORM and you offer your services here. You handle your taxes, you handle your income, you even pay them for promoting your services, just like you do on Google with Google Ads. Are you working for Google too? You are just a third party freelancer, offering services on a platform. And you are not hired by any platform, you are just a contractor.

You are not hired by Fiverr, you are not working for Fiverr. If you do, then those customer support people, success managers, what are they? Aren't they the ones working for Fiverr? I get the confusion, however we are not Fiverr's hires. We are independent contractors. There's no contract you have with Fiverr. You can stop selling here right now and close your account. You can do that, there's no contract here, you just stop and move to another platform if you want. Fiverr is just a platform, a middleman between you and buyers. They handle payments, disputes, but they are not a company who hired you for a specific task. 

6 hours ago, whildebrand said:

d) Fiverr has a time tracking system, and you are expected to work regular hours.

You are not forced to use any time tracking system. I've been here for 10 years+ at this point and was never pressured to work even 1 hour from Fiverr's side. I offer services on the platform, people buy it, and I work based on my own schedule, the way I want. I never work regular hours. Sometimes I work 1 hour a day or skip, other times I do 12 hour days if I want to batch everything in a single day and send stuff earlier. 

That's the beauty of freelancing on these sites. You choose the project you work on, and many times who you work with, unless they hire you directly of course. But generally, Fiverr provided lots of flexibility for me. I did have days when I worked most of the day due to multiple projects accumulating, however that was on me, and not due to Fiverr forcing me to work regular hours or anything like that.

6 hours ago, whildebrand said:

However, if you have a major business website with e-commerce integration and possibly a significant website migration worth over $1,500, an order that may take a week or longer to complete, the situation quickly changes drastically.

It always comes down to the value provided. No is forced to have any price. You set it yourself. That means you have to deliver. 

The problem is that regardless of the price, you will sometimes end up working with buyers that rate you randomly. And based on my experience, this was an issue before this new review system, for years. I had people rate me 1 star on a $100 order because they were sleepy and Fiverr pressured them to review. So.. I rest my case, incidents can always happen, I just prefer to move on. I don't think that a 4.7 star review will hurt anyone. 

2 hours ago, marinanp86 said:

I have exactly the same opinion regarding the legal employment relationship with FIVER. And I also wonder to what extent they can harm so many sellers who spent years here and who today Fiver is their plate of food on the table, without having any legal repercussions...🙄

Well as I said, you are not hired by Fiverr. You offer services on a platform. You are not employed by them and you shouldn't rely solely on Fiverr income to put food on the table. Because ranking is very flexible these days, and you can have weeks or months without orders. I think people see freelancing on Fiverr as being hired by the platform, which is not the case. There's no contract with Fiverr and they don't pay your taxes, they don't offer vacation time or benefits like health insurance. How are you hired by Fiverr? You're just a third party freelancer that chose to offer services on the platform and you can easily stop all gigs and stop selling this instant. Fiverr won't force you to do anything.

If there's no legal contract between you and Fiverr stating that you have to work X hours a day/week/month, salary agreement and other things, then you are not hired by Fiverr, nor do you work FOR Fiverr. You are working ON Fiverr, which is a platform, a middleman. The only people that work for Fiverr are their customer success people, customer support, developers they hired to work on the website, etc. I understand some people are confused but come on.. we are just contractors offering services on a platform. Fiverr covered their legal grounds very well here. So honestly, I don't see any legal repercussions, unless a specific country enforces specific freelancing-related rules and Fiverr needs to abide. 

PS: In the end, none of these arguments and opinions matter, we are at the mercy of investors and the way they want to drive the company forward. The moment I heard about this review and leveling system I knew there will be an outrage. On one hand we get to learn more about the gig performance, but on another hand we have no idea why the score drops randomly. I have a gig that only had 2 sales in 4 months, and initially the reviews had negative impact, without any sale for 2 months the reviews have a strong negative impact. And that gig doesn't even have a single bad review. It makes no sense on the forefront, which means some customers leave random private reviews, otherwise there's no way to explain it. I, for one, decided to not worry about these things that are outside of my control.  I have my own gripe with this review and level system, but at the end of the day I decided to just move on, because Fiverr already knows about all the issues people shared. If they want to make a change, they know what people are unhappy with. Based on my experience, they always stick with the stuff they implemented and while they make small changes, like the value for money shifting to value of delivery.. they rarely make significant changes.

Edited March 27 by donnovan86

[marinanp86]

18 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

Well as I said, you are not hired by Fiverr. You offer services on a platform. You are not employed by them and you shouldn't rely solely on Fiverr income to put food on the table. Because ranking is very flexible these days, and you can have weeks or months without orders. I think people see freelancing on Fiverr as being hired by the platform, which is not the case. There's no contract with Fiverr and they don't pay your taxes, they don't offer vacation time or benefits like health insurance. How are you hired by Fiverr? You're just a third party freelancer that chose to offer services on the platform and you can easily stop all gigs and stop selling this instant. Fiverr won't force you to do anything.

If there's no legal contract between you and Fiverr stating that you have to work X hours a day/week/month, salary agreement and other things, then you are not hired by Fiverr, nor do you work FOR Fiverr. You are working ON Fiverr, which is a platform, a middleman. The only people that work for Fiverr are their customer success people, customer support, developers they hired to work on the website, etc. I understand some people are confused but come on.. we are just contractors offering services on a platform. Fiverr covered their legal grounds very well here. So honestly, I don't see any legal repercussions, unless a specific country enforces specific freelancing-related rules and Fiverr needs to abide. 

 

I think we know how to differentiate a job in a dependency relationship (white work) from freelance, irregular work or black work (as they say in some countries).
What I'm saying is that.

For example, I work a few days a week in a place here, however I don't have a contract, they don't make contributions to me, they don't give me social work, I'm in the black, why? ? ? because I only work one or two days a week, because I am friends with the owner and because it works for me.

But... but... but if I wanted I could go to the Ministry of Labor and file a complaint for working in a place and not having a contract, I can present evidence and witnesses calmly. What would happen? that the ministry would force the owner of the premises to give me a contract and pay me retirement contributions and social benefits, in addition to fining him very high sums.

So... your example is not valid friend, since the fact that there is no contract does not mean that there is no established employment relationship.

On the other hand, you say that you work when you want and that no one should have this as food on their table. Well, first you shouldn't tell anyone what to do with the way they feed their family or home, since you don't know each individual's situation.

Second, it is not as you say, since Fiver itself forces you to make the commitment, effort and dedication 100% on the platform if you want to be successful.
If you are a seller who is not engaged, who is not online, who responds late to messages, who does not deliver jobs correctly, who does not communicate with his clients and blah, blah, blah, you have no chance here.

Therefore, you do NOT work when you want, you do not do what you want, you are not self-employed here, for the simple reason that there are rules to follow and there are sanctions for violating them.

Of course no one forces you to do anything, if you don't like it you leave the platform, but that doesn't mean that if you want to be in the market you clearly can't do what you want as if you were your own boss. Here you are not your boss, your boss is Fiver.

I agree with the rest of the text. I send you greetings.

[donnovan86]

41 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

Second, it is not as you say, since Fiver itself forces you to make the commitment, effort and dedication 100% on the platform if you want to be successful.

You choose to work on Fiverr. They are not your employer. That's all. Of course if you use the platform, that comes with certain rules. But you didn't sign a contract. You can easily cancel the orders if you don't want to and stop using the platform. When you're hired, you don't have that luxury. You have a contract, usually on a predetermined timeline. 

You are. Because unlike being hired, as a freelancer you choose when, where and how much you work. When you're hired, that's not the same. You are forced to go to work at X in the morning and then go home at Y in the afternoon. 

41 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

Well, first you shouldn't tell anyone what to do with the way they feed their family or home, since you don't know each individual's situation.

We are talking about Fiverr specifically. Fiverr didn't hire you, instead you just work on a platform. The wise thing is to have multiple sources of income. Each person knows their own financial situation, but these days just relying only on Fiverr is not exactly a good idea, if you want consistent income. Because the changes they made can lead to inconsistency very fast. 

41 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

So... your example is not valid friend, since the fact that there is no contract does not mean that there is no established employment relationship.

 

Yeah, I'll stop wasting time explaining. Employment means you are "being paid to work for a company or organization". Fiverr doesn't pay you, buyers do. Fiverr is just the middleman and they take a cut of your earnings, they give you a platform to sell your services. They aren't your employer. Sure, you agree to certain rules while on the platform, but there's no type of employment here. Feel free to think it is, but legally, there's no employment. I've never been tied to any platform as a freelancer. You can easily stop using any platform and there's no employment contract or anything like that tying you to anything.

You want to achieve succes on Fiverr and only work here? Great, that doesn't mean you are being paid by them. Buyers pay for your services and Fiverr is a platform that offers some benefits like escrow services, sometimes they might cover you if a person tries to scam you. But hey, you can promote your own services online, use an online escrow service and not deal with Fiverr. Does the escrow service employ you? 

Edited March 27 by donnovan86

[marinanp86]

12 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

You want to achieve succes on Fiverr and only work here? Great, that doesn't mean you are being paid by them. Buyers pay for your services and Fiverr is a platform that offers some benefits like escrow services, sometimes they might cover you if a person tries to scam you. But hey, you can promote your own services online, use an online escrow service and not deal with Fiverr. Does the escrow service employ you? 

Exact! That's what I mean! So, you are independent when you have your own office, or agency or client portfolio and you manage it your way, with your rules, period.

This is not the same, although there is no formal relationship contract, you are within a platform that, although it is not paying you for a specific job, does manage the flow of money and keeps a % of your work.
Again, I'm not saying I'm an employee of Fiver, I'm saying there's a working relationship, whether you like it or not, that's what you have here working with a mediator.

Yes, of course you can leave whenever you want, but that doesn't take away from what I just explained, one thing doesn't cancel out the other.

We can differ, no problem, in any case Fiver does what he wants and doesn't give a damn what we are talking about here 🥴

[zakirahmed66]

I wonder what led to the changes to the leveling system and all, but I'm not a fan of it, and by the looks of it, almost nobody is.

Before the implementation of the new system, I deleted every single gig and only left my most successful gig and a new gig with way fewer orders but good potential. I thought surely I would maintain my level; I was wrong. I'm not even close. I tried understanding each metric and how the new system worked so that I could improve accordingly, but you can't fix something that isn't broken. Simply put, I've only ever received one bad review, which was a 4.7. My field of work is pretty straight-forward, and you get what you're promised (unlike the competitive field of design and others where subjective factors come into play). 

My success score is 4 and I've made every effort to change it. I put together a strategy from whatever I could understand from the vague CS response. I implemented the strategy, worked on my second gig, worked on client satisfaction as much as I could (I didn't offer to massage their feet), and more. 

Now the question was, when can I see the results? When are the stats for my second gig going to appear? Did the vague metrics that I worked on improve? I came to this forum to get these questions answered. From what I've gathered, there is no set time when metrics are updated. There are metrics you may never know that will drown you. You won't know whether something you worked on was successful or failed. 

As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[donnovan86]

7 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

This is not the same, although there is no formal relationship contract, you are within a platform that, although it is not paying you for a specific job, does manage the flow of money and keeps a % of your work.

Yeah. And that's the extent of it. They don't force you to work certain hours, they don't force you to take hundreds of jobs, etc. You can easily place a limit to orders in queue, you also have request to order. You can work as little or as much as you want. It's just a platform where you can sell stuff. You can't tell me that people selling on eBay or Etsy are hired by them 🙂 yes, the platform has some obligations like managing money and stuff but that's about it. You agree to their terms when you create an account, you can easily just choose to buy and ignore any selling. Or you sell within their rules. 

9 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

So, you are independent when you have your own office, or agency or client portfolio and you manage it your way, with your rules, period.

 You can also be independent by working alone, in your pajamas, paying your taxes and just doing freelance work on platforms like Fiverr, Uwork, Toptal or whatever. That makes you independent as a freelancer. Not having an office or agency. But to each his own. I don't feel any employment, pressure to work a certain schedule or anything like that when I am on Fiverr or other freelancing sites. I always try to set the deadlines I want, and I've been doing that for over 10 years. That's why I am confused as to why some freelancers here see Fiverr as their employer. 

There was one person that was saying on the forum :)) Fiverr should pay them unemployment benefits because they have no orders and Fiverr should guarantee orders for them. Which is obviously not the case, anyone can easily create an account, say they are hired by Fiverr and wait for employment benefits. And they will be waiting, because they are independent contractors, they aren't hired by Fiverr directly, people hire them through Fiverr. 

So yeah, Fiverr is a facilitator. They will never take any responsibility like a company who hires you. Because you come here OFFERING your services, you're not hired by them to do specific work. I can easily change all my gigs, shift to graphic design instead of writing and Fiverr won't do anything. Do that at a place where you are hired to be a writer or programmer. Nah, today I want to stop being a programmer, I will start being a designer instead. They fire you on the spot 🙂 

Anyway, I don't mind what others think, I respect that. But clearly Fiverr is a platform, everyone should treat it as such. It's not your employer. You are just an independent contractor offering services on Fiverr/Uwork or whatever platform. 

[donnovan86]

7 minutes ago, zakirahmed66 said:

There are metrics you may never know that will drown you. You won't know whether something you worked on was successful or failed. 

The main problem here are the hidden metrics. Those private reviews can easily be random, people don't even know they are rating you as a seller, the questions make it seem you are rating your experience with the platform. That's why I think many of us have bad private reviews without even knowing what caused them in the first place. But it is what it is, at this point I am just tired on worrying about every metric under the sun. Clearly we are at a point where diversifying our income is extremely important, because you can't rely on a single platform anymore. And that's the truth. 

 

[cucinavivace]

31 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

You choose to work on Fiverr. ... Of course if you use the platform, that comes with certain rules. But you didn't sign a contract. You can easily cancel the orders if you don't want to and stop using the platform. When you're hired, you don't have that luxury. You have a contract, usually on a predetermined timeline. 

I do taxes for some Uber folks, plus I've done some consulting work for Uber muckity mucks, so I took an interest and started following one of the big rideshare message boards. It never ceases to astound me how many people think downloading an app should guarantee them the respect and rights of an actual employment agreement. Those folks are constantly up in arms about this topic and being treated like employees, or insisting they should be employees, and they will make any argument to justify that position. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to say "You downloaded an app designed to make side cash. They didn't interview you. They didn't pick you. And they certainly didn't offer you fixed pay. You signed up. That's it."

While I am certainly as annoyed as anybody else about this new system and the lost time it seems it's going to cost me in building up my "Fiverr business" for nothing, I consider all those changes to be violating the spirit of our previous agreement on what I would get for what I put in (in levels and marketplace visibility). I don't consider it a violation of my worker's rights. As you say, we're all free to leave. And this is why these companies do what they do in the first place. They don't want employees. They want people scrambling to make money where they take a cut without the infrastructure costs. It's the whole point.

[marinanp86]

5 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

 You can also be independent by working alone, in your pajamas, paying your taxes and just doing freelance work on platforms like Fiverr, Uwork, Toptal or whatever. That makes you independent as a freelancer. Not having an office or agency. But to each his own. I don't feel any employment, pressure to work a certain schedule or anything like that when I am on Fiverr or other freelancing sites. I always try to set the deadlines I want, and I've been doing that for over 10 years. That's why I am confused as to why some freelancers here see Fiverr as their employer. 

Of course, the difference is that if you sell on Ebay or Amazon they don't penalize you for responding late, or for not having effective communication, nor do they hide you from search results because you delivered a dented package.

You don't lose your source of work from one day to the next because of some crazy damn metric.
There the mediation is the exhibition and little else.
Mediation here is subject to many metrics that constantly require you to be at the mercy of the client or you're left out. We're talking about that... we're not making a thread about general labor laws, we're talking about how Fiver behaves with sellers.

We're talking about people who put in years of commitment here and now have nothing.
It's not as simple as you make it out to be, otherwise no one would have complained about anything here, they would all be selling on Amazon and enjoying life 🙄

13 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

There was one person that was saying on the forum :)) Fiverr should pay them unemployment benefits because they have no orders and Fiverr should guarantee orders for them. Which is obviously not the case, anyone can easily create an account, say they are hired by Fiverr and wait for employment benefits. And they will be waiting, because they are independent contractors, they aren't hired by Fiverr directly, people hire them through Fiverr. 

That is another extreme and is extremely ridiculous.

[cucinavivace]

8 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

Of course, the difference is that if you sell on Ebay or Amazon they don't penalize you for responding late, or for not having effective communication, nor do they hide you from search results because you delivered a dented package.

Just for information's sake, yes they do. If you ship late or customers get damaged goods or you don't respond to customer inquiries through the marketplace or you don't eventually satisfy the customer, you'll lose the Buy Box top placement first, then you lose search result placement based on those lower metrics, then eventually if it gets bad enough they'll suspend your account. Just like here.

Not an argument about the point you're trying to make in general. Just clarification on that one thing. Nothing is a free for all anymore. All these platforms and marketplaces have too many people signing up every day to replace you to not have metrics you must meet or be penalized for not meeting.

Edited March 27 by cucinavivace

[marinanp86]

9 minutes ago, cucinavivace said:

And this is why these companies do what they do in the first place. They don't want employees. They want people scrambling to make money where they take a cut without the infrastructure costs. It's the whole point.

And that's okay with you? 😬

It is one thing to demand labor rights where there are none. Another thing is that a platform becomes a millionaire at the expense of the work of thousands of remote sellers and from one day to the next it harms the vast majority without giving a damn. There is something called “employment relationship” and in it an implied ethic and morality is forged that at least in my opinion should be minimally respected, such as giving a voice and vote to the people who work for the company to exist.

I don't know, I mean...it seems like asking to be taken into account would be crazy 🥴 Maybe we should stop talking, lest Fiver still feel offended for wanting to demand equal treatment and respect 🙄

[cucinavivace]

Just now, marinanp86 said:

And that's okay with you? 😬

It is one thing to demand labor rights where there are none. Another thing is that a platform becomes a millionaire at the expense of the work of thousands of remote sellers and from one day to the next it harms the vast majority without giving a damn. There is something called “employment relationship” and in it an implied ethic and morality is forged that at least in my opinion should be minimally respected, such as giving a voice and vote to the people who work for the company to exist.

I don't know, I mean...it seems like asking to be taken into account would be crazy 🥴 Maybe we should stop talking, lest Fiver still feel offended for wanting to demand equal treatment and respect 🙄

Sure it's ok with me. I don't always think it's fair in all ways and of course there are things I'd like to see work differently, but it's not a job. If I want a job I can go get a job. I don't want a job. I've been self-employed and freelancing for 40 years. It works fine for me. If it doesn't work fine for me on Fiverr, I can leave, but Fiverr being broken doesn't mean the model in total is necessarily broken.

[donnovan86]

14 minutes ago, cucinavivace said:

They don't want employees. They want people scrambling to make money where they take a cut without the infrastructure costs

Exactly. I've been here for 10 years and never felt like an employee. Nor are they offering any employment benefits nor do they handle taxes. It's just a place where you earn money, at your convenience. These platforms thrive because there are always people willing to offer services on them, and if you leave, 10 more will come and replace you. 

5 minutes ago, cucinavivace said:

then eventually if it gets bad enough they'll suspend your account

True but you're not employed by them. You just have to follow the terms of service, that's all. And you agree to those when you sign up for an account. An employer will force you to achieve a certain target every month, that's not the case if you sell on your own. You can sell as much or as little as you want, no one is forcing you, the only thing you have to focus on is following the platform's rules. 

12 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

Of course, the difference is that if you sell on Ebay or Amazon they don't penalize you for responding late, or for not having effective communication, nor do they hide you from search results because you delivered a dented package.

They also have certain metrics they track, every platform that allows you to sell on it will always track metrics, simply for ranking purposes. Because there are lots of sellers, so they want to rank you. Even if they might not hide you from results, you will receive a bad review from the dented package receiver and that will impact you in one way. 

Unfortunately there's no employment relationship with Fiverr. There's no contract, nothing. You are just an independent person selling on their platform. It's not in their interest to have a contract with you or anything that forces them to a certain agreement. The way they operate now is great for them because they can have thousands of sellers, those can leave or continue working, and the platform doesn't have any liability. Adding any type of agreement or contracts will just make things more difficult for them. Unless there are certain rules like the DAC-7 report where they are forced to share your income with the tax authorities, Fiverr is not forced to do anything. I think they are comfortable in this position and having any type of contract would just add extra requirements on their side. Which let's face it, who wants any more liability than they already deal with :))

[marinanp86]

36 minutes ago, cucinavivace said:

Just for information's sake, yes they do. If you ship late or customers get damaged goods or you don't respond to customer inquiries through the marketplace or you don't eventually satisfy the customer, you'll lose the Buy Box top placement first, then you lose search result placement based on those lower metrics, then eventually if it gets bad enough they'll suspend your account. Just like here.

Not an argument about the point you're trying to make in general. Just clarification on that one thing. Nothing is a free for all anymore. All these platforms and marketplaces have too many people signing up every day to replace you to not have metrics you must meet or be penalized for not meeting.

I imagined that buyer protection policies have evolved over the years, but even so, keep in mind that they are gradual penalties. Come on, you have to send rocks in boxes instead of products to close your account.

That's not what happens here. This is not what currently happened on Fiver. At least I'm pretty angry because I dedicated my time to this platform for months to do things right, I've kept my clients happy, and because of a delivery metric I've been removed from the results and now my account is obsolete. That seems unfair to me, along with many other similar cases here.

I am not against the rules, I am not against the platforms, I am against this context and situation that is ridiculous. I have worked for years on other platforms and I have never seen such disastrous treatment of sellers as here.

EDIT:

If it is a job, what it is not is being a job in a dependency relationship. Are you working. We are working.
I really don't understand where this conversation is going, I'm not demanding to be treated like an employee... I really don't know why they are talking about this.

I talked about an employment relationship and I'm sorry but legally it is like that, with Uber the same thing happens, where you have to be a monotributista, you are a driver for whom? from Uber. It does not mean that you have laws that protect you, but you have a relationship and at least it is known that there are decisions that harm the counterparty and that must be taken into account.

Denying that doesn't make sense to me. I'm sorry. Everyone has their opinion, and perhaps in each country the rules are different. Here at least if there are too many sellers or delivery people or drivers on a platform, they even form guilds and even unions so that precarious work does not exist. Therefore, there is no point in arguing about labor laws.

Sorry, I can't write more messages today, Fiver won't let me 🤣🤣

Edited March 27 by marinanp86

[cucinavivace]

2 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

True but you're not employed by them. You just have to follow the terms of service, that's all. And you agree to those when you sign up for an account.

That was re my Amazon/eBay quote. Sure. That's what I said too. We agree. 🙂

Edited March 27 by cucinavivace

[cucinavivace]

6 minutes ago, marinanp86 said:

I imagined that buyer protection policies have evolved over the years, but even so, keep in mind that they are gradual penalties. Come on, you have to send rocks in boxes instead of products to close your account.

That's not what happens here. This is not what currently happened on Fiver. At least I'm pretty angry because I dedicated my time to this platform for months to do things right, I've kept my clients happy, and because of a delivery metric I've been removed from the results and now my account is obsolete. That seems unfair to me, along with many other similar cases here.

I am not against the rules, I am not against the platforms, I am against this context and situation that is ridiculous. I have worked for years on other platforms and I have never seen such disastrous treatment of sellers as here.

Absolutely correct. And that's the whole point you should be sticking with. I'm not saying you don't have a point about how we're being treated. I agree with you 100%, and if you go back over the last 52 pages you will see me agreeing with you in my own comments over and over. I just don't agree about the employment/contract part.

Not employment, fine. Bumping people from Level 2 to Level 0, incorporating old data they told us wouldn't count, springing it all on us all at once with huge consequences, not fine.

That's why I say Fiverr is broken, not the non-employment/freelancing model. 

Edited March 27 by cucinavivace

[donnovan86]

7 minutes ago, cucinavivace said:

I'm not saying you don't have a point about how we're being treated.

I think it mostly has to do with the way some people tried to manipulate the system. They were canceling orders instead of getting a bad review - that's why the reviews for canceled orders were implemented. They were only curating 5 star reviews, making their service seem perfect, when it's not - a new review and leveling system to try and lower scores. 

So yeah, a lot of these changes were made because, whether we like it or not, tons of sellers try to curate their reviews, they even manipulate buyers to leave a 5 star review if they want to ever see they work, etc. A lot of buyers complained on the forum. So I see why they made these changes. The problem is that with this new level system, we don't even know what affects the success score, aside from what we see publicly.

In the case of @marinanp86, it might be due to random reviews left privately. It certainly was the case for me last year around this time and it took me multiple months to recover. Even if I had only 5 star reviews exclusively, I was barely getting any messages or orders from new people, and my success manager said that my buyer satisfaction rate (now this success score) is low. So yeah, there are a lot of hidden metrics that Fiverr doesn't share with us, which is why the success score feels random. Because from our perspective, the public stuff seems perfect, yet you don't know if a person randomly rated you poorly in the private feedback form. 

[cucinavivace]

4 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

In the case of @marinanp86, it might be due to random reviews left privately. 

Yes. I know exactly what it was in my case. It was a handful of people in other countries using Google Translate who found the reporting requirements for their US based single-member LLCs they had formed to avoid taxes too complex to understand in translation, or in a couple cases folks who insisted they were exempt from US taxes even with that LLC when they were not, so they got pissed when I told them they were not.

And as you say, people manipulate the system and a response may be necessary. But this? I mean at least disclose and let me respond. Or at least don't include two years of previous BS and start from scratch so we know what we're dealing with.

Explained, perhaps. Excused, no. 

[vhskid]

9 hours ago, whildebrand said:

f) There is even a clause in Fiverr's Terms of Service preventing you from advertising your freelance services on Google Ads for any similar services you offer on Fiverr. So you may not "freelance" outside of Fiverr in the proper sense of the term, similar to what any employer would demand of you. You can look it up in Fiverr's Terms of Service.

 

Can show that point in TOS? 

 

I think you misread the statement below that prohibits using Google Ads for promoting URLs to your Gigs and Fiverr profile...

 

 

It's not a non-compete clause. You can freelance outside of Fiverr.