Testing improvements to the rating & review system

[visualstudios]

24 minutes ago, emmaki said:

Not to mention that the less orders one gets (hello big ticket sellers who aren't farming out their work off-platform to evade Fiverr arbitrage Community Standards/chronically ill people/etc), the more severe the impact.

YES. It's very disheartening, specially in workload intense areas like mine (video editing), to see sellers with bad gigs, bad quality, and downright bad editing (I can tell, it's my line of work), making way more than I'm making, all while outsourcing like crazy to people who edit that garbage for pennies on the dollar. 

I outsource nothing (of the editing, I outsource things like voice over or graphic design, but that's explicit for the client from the beginning - that's not my line of work, and I don't claim to be a professional in those fields, or to sell those services by themselves).

I refuse low quality projects. I don't want to sell garbage just because there's a chance I "can get away with it on volume because clients don't know any better". But am I rewarded for it? Not in terms of levels, or badges - in terms of actual earnings and quality clients? Nope.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[emmaki]

@visualstudios - you forgot the "value for money" button. That's my favorite. Am I a pro-rated seller with thousands of 5-star reviews (OK, that's hardly a brag) or a VAL-U-ADD can of processed meat product ("made from meat") with beans at a discount supermarket? 

I get so confused sometimes... 

 

 

[visualstudios]

8 minutes ago, emmaki said:

you forgot the "value for money" button. That's my favorite. Am I a pro-rated seller with thousands of 5-star reviews (OK, that's hardly a brag) or a VAL-U-ADD can of processed meat product ("made from meat") with beans at a discount supermarket? 

Yep. With the new system being Pro is actually worse for you in a way. Not even taking price into account, just having the badge there will ostensibly increase expectations, therefore likely lowering the review you get - all else being equal.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[frank_d]

I really think this is a step in the wrong direction.

[terrygrantvo]

30 minutes ago, frank_d said:

I really think this is a step in the wrong direction.

It absolutely is, but again - I think that's the point. With respect to Kesha, this is about one thing and one thing only - unbundling the crowd of us at the top with 5 star ratings.

They need to more easily be able to excuse the volatility of the algorithm because that isn't going to stop.

 

This, and really every inane idea they've implemented over the last few years (repeat business score, private reviews, etc) are just trying to address the fact that they have to 'spread it around' to keep as many of us as possible just happy enough to not leave the site altogether.

 

Mind you - they still very much expect us to do 5 star level work, they just have no intention of letting us keep the 5 star ratings anymore.

 

This has nothing at all to do with making the experience here better for sellers or buyers.

Edited December 12, 2023 by terrygrantvo

[Kesha]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:25 AM, vovkaslovesnyy said:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's impossible 😄

Maybe you need to tick "Level of innovation" to get those 0.5 😅

Everything for the sake of "a more modern, reliable rating & review system that will encourage freelance business growth... empower customer decision-making, and enhance trust between freelancers and customers."

In my opinion, it's just another terrible update, which will perfectly fit the awful layout for non-visual gigs. I also think that this emoji 🤩 has to be replaced with this 😍. Many people will never use hearts (showing love?!), so it's a win-win situation!

The review process has to be simple, and this update makes it even more puzzling. 

Both reviews (public and private) have to be in a single form. Take a look at Airbnb, where you can send a private review right before writing a public one. 

By adding more screens, buttons, fields, and all other things... I don't want to dive into the details, since it will be 99.9% implemented like that. 

And by the way, can we finally get that "Payments for active orders" block working?

Okay, I will go and think about how to make my translations and videos more innovative 🫡

Hi @vovkaslovesnyy! I appreciate you expressing your thoughts about this new update. We are sending them to the appropriate team for consideration.

[emmaki]

9 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

YES. It's very disheartening, specially in workload intense areas like mine (video editing), to see sellers with bad gigs, bad quality, and downright bad editing (I can tell, it's my line of work), making way more than I'm making, all while outsourcing like crazy to people who edit that garbage for pennies on the dollar. 

I outsource nothing (of the editing, I outsource things like voice over or graphic design, but that's explicit for the client from the beginning - that's not my line of work, and I don't claim to be a professional in those fields, or to sell those services by themselves).

I refuse low quality projects. I don't want to sell garbage just because there's a chance I "can get away with it on volume because clients don't know any better". But am I rewarded for it? Not in terms of levels, or badges - in terms of actual earnings and quality clients? Nope.

I think that all Pros realized quite early on that despite Fiverr's big words about 1% best of yadda elite best of blah that there was a need for a careful balancing act between the "Pro" gigs and "save muh ratings" gigs. It's quite a stressful game, really. 

There is one writer Pro who, very early on, got herself in one of the big US newspapers with a paid ad-ticle about how she was blah blah best #1 amazeballs fempower blah blah. She's spent a lot of time on courses and social media telling the usual throngs how to succeed on Fiverr - "just use AI, Fiverr's okayed it!" - and now she's a millionaire TikTok homesteader or something. Meanwhile, you look at her profile (might be OOO rn), it's very clear that the quality of her work is inconsistent as is her service. Yet the volume of the orders more than makes up for any frailties. I'm sure she's a good writer, and she's definitely a great marketer.

But is she consistent with Fiverr's Pro values? What are they now? A stepping stone between Level 2 and TRS? Since Fiverr Business stopped being sub-only and anyone could be Pro, the quality of buyers has declined massively too (IMO). My first few Pro buyers were terrifying. Now? Honestly, I'd probably make more slinging $30 articles (and have no social life) and have 0 worries with ratings - with RTO and my bad buyer spidey senses, it would just be pick 'n' choose. The buyers are.... the same. There's just a lot more at $30 and more likely to look at my Pro gigs and say "eff yah, that's value for money!". 

Which, incidentally, is exactly what happened in my initial days as Pro before Fiverr decided that one couldn't have Pro and regular gigs in the same category, slashing my orders and income. They also didn't allow regular gigs to become Pro gigs. All changed now, of course. So, even as Fiverr goes upmarket, there's this weird race to the bottom by its own actions. Presumably because the real money is still at the (ever increasing, due to those slowly increasing and enforced category minimums) "bottom" after you peel away the prize $50k handful of gigs in investor report. 

I sometimes wonder if she ever got the "you're going to stop being a pro if you don't buck up your ideas" nastygram that I and others have got in the past. Make it make sense, Fiverr; the emojis and buttons don't fix this kind of sickness at the heart of your feedback and ranking system!

Hm, maybe I'll try the cheap 'n' cheerful gig strategy next year. I did keep all my regular bestsellers on pause. With Request to Order, I pick and choose buyers grateful for my "value for money" by giving them a wild $200 discount (or whatever) on my pro gig and get glowing reviews. 

Or is that a form of feedback manipulation? 🤔

Hello @frank_d! Please get out your biggest barrels for this one: it *deserves* it! 

[visualstudios]

4 minutes ago, terrygrantvo said:

unbundling the crowd of us at the top with 5 star ratings.

But that's the issue... It's not a "crowd at the top". It's everyone. Everyone has 5 star ratings. It's either 5 stars, or nothing - if you're under 4.9/4.8 (which is 5 in practice), you won't stick around, there's no point. Changing a system that always worked like that without starting all over again (basically remove all previous reviews and start from scratch) is not possible.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[frank_d]

3 minutes ago, terrygrantvo said:

It absolutely is, but again - I think that's the point. With respect to Kesha, this is about one thing and one thing only - unbundling the crowd of us at the top with 5 star ratings.

They need to more easily be able to excuse the volatility of the algorithm because that isn't going to stop.

 

This, and really every inane idea they've implemented over the last few years (repeat business score, private reviews, etc) are just trying to address the fact that they have to 'spread it around' to keep as many of us as possible just happy enough to not leave the site altogether.

 

This has nothing at all to do with making the experience here better for sellers or buyers.

Oh I agree. I fully understand the problem they are trying to solve. I just wonder what will happen to a lot of sellers who will start getting weird reviews for no good reason.

[terrygrantvo]

2 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

But that's the issue... It's not a "crowd at the top". It's everyone. Everyone has 5 star ratings. It's either 5 stars, or nothing - if you're under 4.9/4.8 (which is 5 in practice), you won't stick around, there's no point. Changing a system that always worked like that without starting all over again (basically remove all previous reviews and start from scratch) is not possible.

I agree, which is why this makes no sense. Even less than the other ideas... this makes negative sense. 🙂

1 minute ago, frank_d said:

Oh I agree. I fully understand the problem they are trying to solve. I just wonder what will happen to a lot of sellers who will start getting weird reviews for no good reason.

I assume it'll depend on how quickly it affects your bottom line. At least that's the way I'll be looking at it.

[emmaki]

Just now, visualstudios said:

But that's the issue... It's not a "crowd at the top". It's everyone. Everyone has 5 star ratings. It's either 5 stars, or nothing - if you're under 4.9/4.8 (which is 5 in practice), you won't stick around, there's no point. Changing a system that always worked like that without starting all over again (basically remove all previous reviews and start from scratch) is not possible.

Nah, burn the whole system to the ground and start with a well-designed system that fairly reflects prior standing.  

It's just nobody has the baubles to do it 🎅

[visualstudios]

5 minutes ago, emmaki said:

Since Fiverr Business stopped being sub-only and anyone could be Pro, the quality of buyers has declined massively too

Wanna talk about it? Spammers are "Fiverr Pro clients" now.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[frank_d]

I can’t help but think that this whole ratings issue started when Fiverr decided to keep the threshold of levels and badges so high.

like if one needed to keep a 4,7 average to maintain their level, what did you think was going to happen? Everyone is 4,7-5,0.

In my mind things need restructuring across the board. 

[visualstudios]

2 minutes ago, frank_d said:

I can’t help but think that this whole ratings issue started when Fiverr decided to keep the threshold of levels and badges so high.

like if one needed to keep a 4,7 average to maintain their level, what did you think was going to happen? Everyone is 4,7-5,0.

In my mind things need restructuring across the board. 

I've always said that, and I remember getting some backlash for it. When I was here saying "4,5 is a bad review due to the way the system works, you can't keep working with clients that consistently rate you anything other than 5 - even if in any normal platform a 4.0 review is good", people disagreed. This is what this system creates. The constant pressure for "perfection", coupled with the low value clients, low earnings (you can't demand perfection and have a platform with prices way lower than the professional industries of each respective vertical) is nonsense.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[emmaki]

1 minute ago, visualstudios said:

Wanna talk about it?

 

Ah yes, someone must have told them that asking for sells is bad, but asking for mentorship is a-OK. 

I point them to my mentorship gig. 

Still no orders 😥

What am I doing wrong? I thought $500 was a good price for an hour of my valuable time!

I also love the 👋 Hi {username}., [unedited placeholder text]. Dude, just say "hi" and nothing else. 

[visualstudios]

I have worse examples than this. This one cost me nothing.

What about spammers who contact me through promoted gigs? I pay for those contacts. Fiverr refuses to reimburse me the cost of that click, after I mark it as spam. What?

[donnovan86]

2 hours ago, visualstudios said:

An ok seller that delivers an ok result, but has a buyer that (either because the seller conditioned him to, or for price reasons) has very low expectations, is likely to get an exceptional (5 star) result. It's easy to beat expectations where there are next to none, and it's easy to beat expectations for 5 bucks.

A professional seller, that delivers a good result, but that is exactly what the buyer was expecting (which is what should happen, and is in any case better than the case above), is likely to get a 3 or 4 star result - because you can't beat sky high expectations.

Well you are comparing apples with oranges. You are free to select any pricepoint you want, and obviously the more people pay, the more they expect from that service. It's human nature. Then again, if we are talking about the same service sold for $5 and $100 for example, I am pretty sure the latter will surpass expectations anyway if it has a higher quality. It also depends on the niche, for example animations at $5 vs animations at $100 will obviously be way worse. But in the case of writing, $5 or $10 articles can be very similar, sometimes identical to $50 or $100 writers, some people just charge less. Maybe the more expensive ones come with extra research, some bells and whistles.

So it comes down to value for money, which is an intrinsic factor. Obviously a ton of people just want to ask as much as possible to make a profit. Others think about the buyer experience, as you said you're not taking low qualtiy projects. So I think as long as you're focused on delivering the best result, you should be fine. 

This entire debate makes the new review process more complicated than it really is. If anything, I am fine they are removing .3 and .7 reviews, and instead you just have .5s. That was a personal pet peeve which I am glad they are addressing. Not a fan of emotes though.

Edited December 12, 2023 by donnovan86

[emmaki]

6 minutes ago, frank_d said:

I can’t help but think that this whole ratings issue started when Fiverr decided to keep the threshold of levels and badges so high.

like if one needed to keep a 4,7 average to maintain their level, what did you think was going to happen? Everyone is 4,7-5,0.

In my mind things need restructuring across the board. 

That really fits into how Levels was introduced (Fiverr blog post about it from the time). I Ihad a 0-5% inbox response rate from 2013 - 2018 because I basically ignored my inbox. You bet it was 100% before the first monthly evaluation, along with everything else. You only had to attain the metrics to get the level...and break some - by today's standards - really bad rules to lose a level. 

But what about Fiverr's other beta test? You know, the profile one that's going down the "personality" route for its gigs/profiles while gigs are still the primary means of getting noticed - although giving the portfolio more visibility is a welcome good idea for once.

Meanwhile, certifications (inc. Learn certification) is buried under a popup of a "find out more" button. It does look like Fiverr's trying to somehow implement Fiverr Business/Pro profiles onto regular Fiverr, but without changing the marketplace presentation. So maybe, just maybe, those little buttons and emojis will go somewhere around here: 


So, certifications and skills that can be verified: hidden. Reviews that say e.g. value for money or w/e in full view along with the freelancing world's profile equivalent of "I enjoy long walks on the beach, candlelit dinners, and flashing my massive asset(s) at Fortune 100 CEOs" and mini-profile image videos (the "personality") which are basically just a rubbish copycat of IG stories.

 

5 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

I have worse examples than this. This one cost me nothing.

What about spammers who contact me through promoted gigs? I pay for those contacts. Fiverr refuses to reimburse me the cost of that click, after I mark it as spam. What?

I have never opted into PG. I still have my free $10. But I know how dealers work 🙂 It would make more sense to use PG if it was more like Fiverr Affiliates (only get paid with a sale), but I suppose Fiverr knows how to butter its bread on both sides of the ad coin.  

 

[visualstudios]

1 minute ago, donnovan86 said:

Well you are comparing apples with oranges.

I'm not. They are conflating two different things. One thing is quality. The other is expectations. Those are not the same metric, so they shouldn't ask for one and convert it to the other.

 

1 minute ago, donnovan86 said:

and obviously the more people pay, the more they expect from that service. It's human nature.

You would think so, wouldn't you? Not necessarily the case. I've seen the most demanding, unrealistic buyers at lower prices.

[donnovan86]

Just now, emmaki said:

but I suppose Fiverr knows how to butter its bread on both sides of the ad coin.  

Well that's how most ad systems work. Same with Google, they won't track your sales, you receive impressions, you pay them. You still need to have a great profile to generate sales, you just pay for more eyeballs on your service hoping to bring in more sales 🙂 You should try it, at least in my case it's not super expensive and it worked quite well.

[visualstudios]

8 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

Same with Google,

Not the same with google, as google allows me to target advertising. I can select the countries I want to hit, for example. That alone would solve that spam problem on Fiverr, as it always comes from the same 3 or 4 places. If 90% of my business on Fiverr comes from a certain place, why can't I chose to do promoted gigs just for buyers that are from that place? That's what would make sense.

I don't want more eyeballs on my service. I want fewer, better, more qualified eyeballs. It's like opening a Ferrari dealership and advertising it in a lower income neighborhood. Even if you get a ton of traffic to the store, it's actually worse to have that traffic than having none. They'll waste your salesmen time, drink your complementary coffee, and generate 0 in sales.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios

[emmaki]

Just now, donnovan86 said:

Well that's how most ad systems work. Same with Google, they won't track your sales, you receive impressions, you pay them. You still need to have a great profile to generate sales, you just pay for more eyeballs on your service hoping to bring in more sales 🙂 You should try it, at least in my case it's not super expensive and it worked quite well.

Yeah, I'm not really criticizing Fiverr here. Sellers asked for PG for a long time so I was happy that it was introduced and it had basic quality standards and all of that. I just haven't really felt any need to use it. I'm usually amused by complaints from (newer) sellers who deem this a terrible way to do business and how [snip]. Perhaps the biggest issue I have with it is that it isn't very customizable, even with the negative keywords. Like on FB, for example, you can really finetune which people will be forced to look at your pretend charity ad/cause supporter/closing down forever sale that's really just a crafty way to sell people who don't understand reverse image search crazily overpriced AliExpress goods. 

Although if I'm going to relaunch my cheap 'n' cheerful Pro-but-not Pro gigs next year, I reckon that's a valid use case for it (since the latest reviews must be like, 5 years old now). I think they both have some of my cattiest feedback responses as well! Of course, these days, I primarily stick to "thank you for your custom" and "thank you!" for a review I like and "thank you" for a review I don't like. I know, what a borefest. 

[visualstudios]

Just now, emmaki said:

Perhaps the biggest issue I have with it is that it isn't very customizable, even with the negative keywords.

Yep, this is the problem. Advertising in 2023 must be targetable. 

[donnovan86]

9 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Not the same with google

I was saying through the spectrum of not paying for sales. You pay for impressions. Fiverr only deals with services and with the platform, not with regions and stuff. Sure, they could do targeting, but that would require them to acquire buyer data. And I don't think they do, not that much anyway. Most advertising methods will only provide impressions, not sales. You're the one in charge of sales. That's my point. 

 

[visualstudios]

2 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

Sure, they could do targeting, but that would require them to acquire buyer data. And I don't think they do, not that much anyway. Most advertising methods will only provide impressions, not sales.

Of course, that's not the issue. I didn't say I wanted to pay for sales, instead of clicks. You do not pay for impressions, btw - you pay for clicks. Which creates the following issue - I can search for my competitors services, click on all the promoted gigs I see, with no intention to buy, and I'm costing them money. I'm sure you see the problem there. But anyway.

The least they could do is targeting the ads. No need to acquire buyer data. They already have the data that matters. Orders completed, types of service bought, average price paid, buyer location. That's all I need.

Edited December 12, 2023 by visualstudios