Important Update: Some canceled orders now qualify for buyer reviews

[visualstudios]

9 minutes ago, smashradio said:

Karen is entirely within her rights to vent her frustrations on Google, Yelp, or Trustpilot with a one-star rating about your business, refund notwithstanding.

Yes, but as the store owner it's up to me to refund them or not at MY SOLE DISCRETION. I'll still get paid for my work if I choose to. If we're talking about a product, it makes no difference, I refund, I get the product back, I sell it to someone else. I lost nothing. If It's a service, I did the work, that's it. It has to be paid. That's a key difference. Go to a lawyer, or a psychologist, or a doctor, have a consultation, say "I'm not happy with the service, I don't want to pay" and see if they give you your money back. Lol. You pay for the service, and if you don't like it, you leave the review you want. That's how it works.

Also, their yelp review won't tank my business like it can on Fiverr. I won't get a level demotion. Etc.

Doesn't matter if it's rare. As I said, didn't happen to me once in over a year. It's still not acceptable design for a system.

What Fiverr should do in this case is have arbitration - someone going over the order and the communication, who actually knows something about the field of work, and evaluating if the cancelation is warranted or not. If the service was rendered as described or not. And only cancel based on that. That's fair. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by visualstudios

[smashradio]

Just now, visualstudios said:

Yes, but as the store owner it's up to me to refund them or not at MY SOLE DISCRETION. I'll still get paid for my work if I choose to. That's a key difference. Also, their yelp review won't tank my business like it can on Fiverr. I won't get a level demotion. Etc.

Doesn't matter if it's rare. As I said, didn't happen to me once in over a year. It's still not acceptable design for a system.

In the majority of cases, I would agree, provided we're ignoring the consumer rights that you're legally required to adhere to. Yes, this is more applicable to tangible goods than services, but even so, any potential client will likely seek some contractual reassurances before engaging with you in a business transaction, especially when substantial amounts of money are on the line.

While I agree that there's a key difference between the power you have as a shop owner (in my example) and a Fiverr seller, I don't think it's an excuse for sellers to be able to sanitize their reviews through cancellations, even when the buyer may have endured a truly bad experience.

Demotion is unlikely unless you're getting a lot of cancellations. In that case, I'd say the issue might lie more within your business model than Fiverr's.

The average score you need to maintain your level has also been lowered, and rightfully so. It would allow for a more balanced rating system where the difference between 4 and 5 stars doesn't necessarily break you in half. 

And frequency matters, in my opinion: if a seller is having to deal with multiple cancellations because of unhappy buyers, they probably shouldn't be allowed to sell on the platform in the first place. Let them go to Up****. 

[visualstudios]

1 minute ago, smashradio said:

The average score you need to maintain your level has also been lowered,

Has it? Where?

1 minute ago, smashradio said:

Demotion is unlikely unless you're getting a lot of cancellations. In that case, I'd say the issue might lie more within your business model than Fiverr's.

Not necessarily. If you're a high ticket, low volume seller, this impacts you disproportionately. If you sell 1 order a month for $10k, you're in the top 1% of sellers, and yet 1 cancelation screws you.

[smashradio]

@visualstudiosBy the way - sorry if I'm not responding to all your thoughts. I see you've updated and edited some of your posts. 

[visualstudios]

Just now, smashradio said:

By the way - sorry if I'm not responding to all your thoughts. I see you've updated and edited some of your posts. 

Yeah, I have this bad habit of getting more ideas after posting lol

[smashradio]

Just now, visualstudios said:

Has it? Where?

Not necessarily. If you're a high ticket, low volume seller, this impacts you disproportionately. If you sell 1 order a month for $10k, you're in the top 1% of sellers, and yet 1 cancelation screws you.

I agree that the system isn't balanced when it comes to high-ticket sellers. 

See screenshot about 4.2 stars now being the new standard. 

[visualstudios]

Well, I didn't get that e-mail. Which begs the question, why do some people get it and others don't? Shouldn't it be equally accessible to everyone?

Either way - I see this as an absolute win for the "request to order feature". If you don't have that turned on, you can't vet buyers, and you can't cancel unreasonable people after the fact without getting hit with a review (because they'll say it was not "by mistake").

Edited June 14, 2023 by visualstudios

[smashradio]

13 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

What Fiverr should do in this case is have arbitration - someone going over the order and the communication, who actually knows something about the field of work, and evaluating if the cancelation is warranted or not. If the service was rendered as described or not. And only cancel based on that. That's fair. 

This we can agree on. 

Fiverr could certainly improve that process, and it would be a welcome improvement if Fiverr did this. More transparency around the decision Fiverr makes when canceling would also be helpful. 

But if Fiverr is to pay for arbitration, sellers and buyers will have to foot the bill. 

It's a difficult balance to strike: is Fiverr going to interfere? When? How? And when is the interference too much, or too little? 

 

[smashradio]

5 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Well, I didn't get that e-mail. Which begs the question, why do some people get it and others don't? Shouldn't it be equally accessible to everyone?

Either way - I see this as an absolute win for the "request to order feature". If you don't have that turned on, you can't vet buyers, and you can't cancel unreasonable people after the fact without getting hit with a review (because they'll say it was not "by mistake").

As I've touched upon in a prior discussion on a different thread, this is a significant win for Seller Plus in general. The importance of insights about your buyers ahead of order has become more important than ever.

In any case, I still agree with this change. It's another step towards purging the platform of subpar sellers.

I think it goes without saying that such an email should be equally accessible to all. I have no idea why you haven't received it. Perhaps we're just too many sellers to distribute to all at once? 

[abhart2000]

41 minutes ago, newsmike said:

Amazing watching so many argue against transparency and accountability.  Absolutely amazing. This only affects people who get their orders cancelled.  

I think the problem people have is that there's too much potential for abuse from bad/scammy buyers.

Such buyers could already get a refund on an "unsatisfactory delivery" because CS usually sides with them. Now, the fact that this buyer can also leave a 1-star review adds insult to injury. They got free work, and they got to damage your reputation too. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that 80% of "unsatisfactory delivery" disputes are fair, and the work is indeed unsatisfactory within reason. But, 20% are the buyer trying to get free work, or, it's unreasonable that they are not satisfied.

Is it fair, then, that sellers are getting the shaft 20% (in my example estimate) of the time? And now, a 1-star review to boot?

And it's true that "first-time buyers" can't leave a review on a canceled order, but, what's stopping your competitor who's not a first-time buyer on the platform, from ordering your gig, brute-forcing a cancelation after you deliver, and then leaving you with 1-star? I admit, it's unlikely...but people are weird.

Lastly, and I think my biggest issue, is that some services are simply more "cancel-prone" than other services. I have a friend who does video editing and ends up with a cancelation once a month or so, because video-editing buyers are prone to ask for several revisions and still not like the end result. There's just more things that the buyer can typically dislike / more factors involved. Meanwhile, I'm a voice actor, and my cancelation rate is 2%. Less than 1%, if we factor in mistaken orders. But my gig is more straightforward, and I think a heck of a lot less cancel-prone / prone to mismatched expectations with buyers. Whereas video editing, web dev, artists, etc. are more cancel-prone.

[hightlink]

I'm sorry but as with most of the other updates, it's clear that Fiverr is only trying to make the experience better for the buyers, not really caring about the sellers. Buyers bring money to this platform and make the owners happy, sellers can always be replaced.

I bet this is just a way to make sellers cancel less orders knowing that if you will get a bad review, at least you can try and keep the $ => fiverr also keeps the commission.

I;m selling on here since 2012, got more than 7.700 reviews and I can I feel like I am disposable. Thank you Fiverr for caring about us 👎

Edited June 14, 2023 by hightlink

[bobipineman]

5 hours ago, saadatique said:

What a terrible update, tbh. Buyers can misuse this feature and blackmail the sellers as well. Why fiverr always think of the buyers but not the sellers? 

because it's the buyer who bring the moneys. That why fiver like them more

[sunboatrecords]

51 minutes ago, vickieito said:

It looks like Fiverr is pushing for sellers to increase the quality of their services, which will decrease cancelations and increase buyer satisfaction.

I also think that this is their intention.

However, if Fiverr had a solid screening process for the sellers that they accept, we could have been spared from all this review madness. And I am not only referring to this latest change.

I am going to be very clear:

I have been approached numerous times by buyers who had contacted many sellers who were not able to fix trivial stuff. Stuff that any audio engineer who is worth his weight in salt ought to know.

Actually, the last one was a couple of days ago.

This buyer was discouraged when he approached me. He was in disbelief when I told him that I can take care of the issue and requested a sample. Then, he was ecstatic. On one hand, this felt good, but on the other, I was upset that the market is saturated because of allowing these folks in. It makes us all look bad. 

I guess it's similar to what has happened to the music industry with all this self-release stuff.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by sunboatrecords

[takiskoroneos]

1 hour ago, donnovan86 said:

@Shiran.M, can you please confirm one thing for us?

In the article it says "Buyers (excluding first-time buyers) can leave a review for canceled orders within 14 days from cancellation if the case involved lateness, unresponsiveness, or an unsatisfactory delivery.".

Does that mean if someone orders from you for the first time, and they cancel, they can't leave a review for a canceled order? I hope so, because otherwise you can have a random competitor sending an order, then asking for a refund and trashing you with a very bad review. Can you please confirm that only return clients can leave a review for a canceled order? I think that's the case, but many sellers are very confused about this in another forum topic regarding this change. So if you can let us know what that means (first time buyer for you or for the Fiverr platform), that would help us better understand this change. 

I suppose the confusion is based on whether they mean someone that buys on Fiverr for the first time or someone that buys from a seller for the first time. There needs to be a clarification for that indeed, cause if it means clients buying from a seller for the first time then it's more reasonable.

[aysekoker]

49 minutes ago, smashradio said:

So you can't see how not completing an order should affect your completion rate? 

Good lord. 

I think you hit the nail on the head. 

I meant cancelling not completing. The cancellations I had mostly because buyers changed their opinion after ordering it and why would it affect my completion rate? Because it is not something because I was unresponsive or work was unsatisfying.

[donnovan86]

2 minutes ago, takiskoroneos said:

I suppose the confusion is based on whether they mean someone that buys on Fiverr for the first time or someone that buys from a seller for the first time. There needs to be a clarification for that indeed, cause if it means clients buying from a seller for the first time then it's more reasonable.

They clarified to meand it's buyers purchasing for the first time on Fiverr. So what I was afraid of.

That being said, if a person also sells and buys on Fiverr, then they can't leave a bad review after canceling, so they can avoid abuse. So there is a good side and a bad side..

 

[smashradio]

1 minute ago, abhart2000 said:

I think the problem people have is that there's too much potential for abuse from bad/scammy buyers.

Such buyers could already get a refund on an "unsatisfactory delivery" because CS usually sides with them. Now, the fact that this buyer can also leave a 1-star review adds insult to injury. They got free work, and they got to damage your reputation too. 

 

Do you have evidence to support the claim that CS typically favors buyers? If that's indeed the case, could it imply that buyers generally wouldn't exert the effort to cancel an order unless they were genuinely dissatisfied with the delivery or service?

Fiverr hates cancellations just as much as we do. Each cancellation represents a lost opportunity and forfeited revenue, not just for us but for Fiverr as well. They miss out on their 20% cut.

Do you really believe that Fiverr willingly and knowingly cancels orders without a valid cause on such a massive scale? If that is the case, how frequently?

How often will a CS representative go "You know what, I feel like cancelling some orders for no reason today since I'm an evil sadist and should have become a dentist instead"?

If Fiverr tends to side with the buyer, there's probably a reason for that. And that reason is most likely that this platform is crowded with mediocre sellers. Fiverr is trying to do something about that. 

 

[takiskoroneos]

1 minute ago, donnovan86 said:

They clarified to meand it's buyers purchasing for the first time on Fiverr. So what I was afraid of.

That being said, if a person also sells and buys on Fiverr, then they can't leave a bad review after canceling, so they can avoid abuse. So there is a good side and a bad side..

 

Thanks for the update, that's disappointing.

[visualstudios]

21 minutes ago, abhart2000 said:

I have a friend who does video editing and ends up with a cancelation once a month or so, because video-editing buyers are prone to ask for several revisions and still not like the end result.

I'm also in the video editing field, and I'm able to have no cancelations. How? I'm extremely demanding with my clients. Any red flag - I won't work with them. Is this ideal, in terms of maximising profits? No, I turn down many projects that probably would be fine. But I just can't risk it, due to the way things work. I have to be suspicious of every contact I get. I don't like it to be like that, but it just is.

 

[donnovan86]

12 minutes ago, takiskoroneos said:

Thanks for the update, that's disappointing.

 

Here's what Noah, a success manager from Fiverr told me. 

 

"Some additional clarification to help provide more context around these changes. This option is not available to all buyers. If the buyer is also a seller, the option is not available. This is to discourage bad competition. If a buyer is brand new to Fiverr, they will not have the option. This option will be available for experienced buyers.

Additionally, If there is no delivery in the order, it will not be possible for a buyer to leave a review on it if it is cancelled unless the seller is unresponsive or the order becomes “very late”. Very late would be 24 hours after the order has already gone late."

Another important point is that a first time buyer refers to a buyer who is making their first purchase on Fiverr not a buyer making their first purchase with you.

[smashradio]

1 minute ago, visualstudios said:

I'm also in the video editing field, and I'm able to have no cancelations. How? I'm extremely demanding with my clients. Any red flag - I won't work with them. Is this ideal, in terms of maximising profits? No, I turn down many projects that probably would be fine. But I just can't risk it, due to the way things work. I have to be suspicious of every contact I get. I don't like it to be like that, but it just is.

 

"You will edit my video perfectly. Do. You. Understand. If you do a good job, I will pay you tomorrow. I expect a perfect delivery in one hour. My budget is five dollars. Set up the offer. I don't have much time." 

You mean those? 😄 

[visualstudios]

14 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

unless the seller is unresponsive

We don't know what this means. What's the definition of unresponsive?

14 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

If the buyer is also a seller, the option is not available. This is to discourage bad competition.

This does nothing. A buyer wanting to screw over the competition just needs to have a friend make an account, buy something for $5 (so they are not a new buyer any longer) and then nuke their competitors.

Edited June 14, 2023 by visualstudios

[visualstudios]

1 minute ago, smashradio said:

"You will edit my video perfectly. Do. You. Understand. If you do a good job, I will pay you tomorrow. I expect a perfect delivery in one hour. My budget is five dollars. Set up the offer. I don't have much time." 

You mean those? 😄 

No, I mean things much MUCH more subtle than that. Things that I would have no issue working with if I was outside of a platform. That's the problem. The more pressure the platform puts on us, and the less recourse we have, the more paranoid we become. That's just how it is. "This person doesn't sound... nice, even if they said nothing wrong... maybe it's too risky."

Edited June 14, 2023 by visualstudios

[smashradio]

Just now, visualstudios said:

No, I mean things much MUCH more subtle than that. Things that I would have no issue working with if I was outside of a platform. That's the problem. 

I'm always careful with my buyers too. If it feels wrong, I won't work with them. But that holds true outside of the platform as well, simply because I hate spending time arguing. 

[donnovan86]

2 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

We don't know what this means. What's the definition of unresponsive?

4 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

I assume the buyer places their order and the seller doesn't reply at all, then eventually the order becomes late/very late.

Edited June 14, 2023 by donnovan86