Who is a native English speaker?

[newsmike]

Eats Shoots and Leaves. great book on grammar. buy it. read it

Thank you for this. I’ve been struggling to understand English punctuation or find any good enough source on it for years. They don’t teach it in schools around here and the native speaker tutor I’ve hired for specifically for this purpose eventually ended with: “Just throw out half of the commas you’d put in intuitively and you’ll be 95% right.”

Commas are most deadly. Makes the difference between:

Let’s eat, Grandpa! and

Let’s eat Grandpa!

[newsmike]

I am a native Klingon speaker. Very refined – just like most Klingons. 😎

I am a native Klingon speaker.

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

[ahmwritingco]

Eats Shoots and Leaves. great book on grammar. buy it. read it

Thank you for this. I’ve been struggling to understand English punctuation or find any good enough source on it for years. They don’t teach it in schools around here and the native speaker tutor I’ve hired for specifically for this purpose eventually ended with: “Just throw out half of the commas you’d put in intuitively and you’ll be 95% right.”

The style manuals usually tell you all you need to know about punctuation. At the moment, I follow Chicago’s advice. I love me an Oxford comma. 🙂

You may get all the info you need from the book David suggested, though. I haven’t read it, but I know a lot of people who have, and they like it.

[fonthaunt]

I am a native Klingon speaker.

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

Mike, there is a forum rule about using languages other than English. You have to either write in English or provide a translation in your post. They make me do it when I speak Martian, too, so you are not exempt. 😬

[jonbaas]

I am a native Klingon speaker.

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

Alas, my friend, that is not a proper Klingon sentence.

But, @fonthaunt does have a point. This is an English-language forum. Our love of the Klingon language must be pursued in other venues. Speaking of which, are we still on for Klingon Blood Wine (or Raktajino, if you prefer) at the Replimat tomorrow? 😉

[freelanceplus1]

A native speaker of English is someone who is originally from England or who grew up speaking the language among the English people in England as L1.

This is not a really useful definition. I was born in the United States and in Texas. My parents spoke American English with a Texas twist and so did I. It isn’t even close to how the language is used in England. My written English might be a tad closer to British English, but I don’t try to correct my spelling to British spelling unless a buyer needs me to. On the forum, I actually mix them up according to my memory of varied spellings from books that I’ve read.

Does that mean that I’m not a native speaker of English since I’m not originally from England and I didn’t grow up speaking the language among English people in England? What is my native language by your definition?

This probably comes off as sounding defensive and it’s not meant to. I think it’s funny. I still don’t think that the only native English speakers can be defined as @freelanceplus1 claims.

Yes. I am focusing on the real meaning of who a native speaker is, not the doctored type to fit ‘Western narrative.’ To your question, if you are a native speaker? You are not. Parts of America was colonised by the British, and often, a colonised state picks the language of the Empire. American English emerged due to the experience of its localised citizens, thereby deviating from the UK variant, carving out its own niche of independence from the Empire. The advantage US English has over others is its superpower status and economic dominance. We also have parts of the US that speak Spanish. Therefore, in the original meaning, a native speaker is as I have defined above. If we are not originally from England and pick that variant as L1, then we are not native speakers. We are just borrowers of the language the natives of England uses. Just like Indians, Australians, South Africans, Canadians, Nigerians, and other Commonwealth nations, etc.

[eoinfinnegan]

Yes. I am focusing on the real meaning of who a native speaker is, not the doctored type to fit ‘Western narrative.’ To your question, if you are a native speaker? You are not. Parts of America was colonised by the British, and often, a colonised state picks the language of the Empire. American English emerged due to the experience of its localised citizens, thereby deviating from the UK variant, carving out its own niche of independence from the Empire. The advantage US English has over others is its superpower status and economic dominance. We also have parts of the US that speak Spanish. Therefore, in the original meaning, a native speaker is as I have defined above. If we are not originally from England and pick that variant as L1, then we are not native speakers. We are just borrowers of the language the natives of England uses. Just like Indians, Australians, South Africans, Canadians, Nigerians, and other Commonwealth nations, etc.

You might be technically right in your definitions but in terms of what buyers on Fiverr want or mean by native English speaker (which is what this topic is about), Fonthaunt would be considered a native English speaker. US English is the language of the internet and more widely used than UK English.

[newsmike]

Qu’ nuq Data’ SoH legh qamuSHa’. majQa’ jImuchlI’.

Alas, my friend, that is not a proper Klingon sentence.

But, @fonthaunt does have a point. This is an English-language forum. Our love of the Klingon language must be pursued in other venues. Speaking of which, are we still on for Klingon Blood Wine (or Raktajino, if you prefer) at the Replimat tomorrow? 😉

still on for Klingon Blood Wine (or Raktajino, if you prefer) at the Replimat tomorrow?

Try and keep me away.

Translation was “I love watching you do what you do.”

[fonthaunt]

If someone in India (or other non English speaking country) studies at a school whose medium of instruction is English, his/her first language would be English, 2nd language would be the mother tongue and 3rd language would generally be some other language commonly spoken in that state or area.

This is a pretty iffy idea, but it doesn’t really matter. That’s all fine and good and I don’t care where someone is from when I hire people unless it matters for the job. If I need a voiceover with a native accent, I probably would prefer someone from that country, but I’ve heard actors who can sure fool me.

What really matters with all this is what potential buyers want, what they get, and how they rate you in the end. If you say that your native language is Martian and they don’t believe it when they get a delivery, they will rate you poorly. If you say that your native language is Plutonian but that you are fluent in Martian, they will still rate you based on what you claim. If you think you can back up your claims and the buyers rate you accordingly, it’s all good.

I would push again to ask then, “What is my native language?”

Actually, I don’t care much what you answer. This thread didn’t seem to be about linguistics and history, so I default back to this:

What really matters with all this is what potential buyers want, what they get, and how they rate you in the end. If you say that your native language is Martian and they don’t believe it when they get a delivery, they will rate you poorly.

[maitasun]

@fonthaunt, you’re bilingual. You speak US and Texas English :roll_eyes:

EDIT: Don’t feel alone! According to freelanceplus1, I’m also bilingual :roll_eyes: I speak Venezuelan and Caracas Spanish and I have a very hard time when reading, writing and understanding - or making myself understand - in Spain’s Spanish :roll_eyes:

[maitasun]

@udimmanny A native speaker of English is someone who is originally from England or who grew up speaking the language among the English people in England as L1.

I’m sad you didn’t understand the irony and gave me a like for my comment to @fonthaunt 😞

End of coffee break… 😉

A native speaker of English is someone who is originally from England or who grew up speaking the language among the English people in England as L1.

Now, seriously! According to what you stated, how am I supposed to be defined or you would define me? Native? Doble native? Triple native? Spanish Polyglot? (Please change into Spanish, Spain where appropriate)

You see, here’s the thing why I’m asking. All of my grandparents were spanish, my father was born in Spain, my mother in Mexico city and I was born in Caracas, Venezuela. As you see, everyone of us was born in a spanish family but in different places.

Please, don’t leave me as you left @fonthaunt without a reasoned answer. It will be much appreciated.

Who knows and perhaps your approach to this matter may reach the Spanish Academy to be taken into account (just joking 😉)

[freelanceplus1]

I’m sad you didn’t understand the irony and gave me a like for my comment to @fonthaunt 😞

End of coffee break… 😉

A native speaker of English is someone who is originally from England or who grew up speaking the language among the English people in England as L1.

Now, seriously! According to what you stated, how am I supposed to be defined or you would define me? Native? Doble native? Triple native? Spanish Polyglot? (Please change into Spanish, Spain where appropriate)

You see, here’s the thing why I’m asking. All of my grandparents were spanish, my father was born in Spain, my mother in Mexico city and I was born in Caracas, Venezuela. As you see, everyone of us was born in a spanish family but in different places.

Please, don’t leave me as you left @fonthaunt without a reasoned answer. It will be much appreciated.

Who knows and perhaps your approach to this matter may reach the Spanish Academy to be taken into account (just joking 😉)

I understood your sarcasm after that roll eyes. I deliberately gave you the like. I can’t speak English with a Texan accent like he would. Neither can I speak Indian English like @amritamazumder if I did not grow up in that sphere. She is a native of that variant of English (Indian) which is peculiar to them, but that doesn’t make it ‘the English.’ There is ‘the English,’ and there are other ‘Englishes’ (permit my pluralisation). The US English, either with a Southern accent or not is not ‘the English’ but just one of the ‘Englishes.’ So, he can be a native of the variant of the English spoken in his area, just like me speaking Arabic doesn’t make me a native speaker of that language; the owners can tell the difference. If you want to know ‘the English,’ find those who gave the language to the world. He is a native speaker of US English. The OP asked, “Who is a native English speaker?” And I answered the original meaning, not the doctored meaning given to suit “western narrative.” Of course, there is the misconception among some that a native English speaker is someone from either the US, UK, Canada & Australia. However, I am narrowing it down to only the English people. An American is simply an American. Someone from the US can say he is a ‘native speaker of Spanish language.’ Whereas someone from Spain will say that is not true, we speak the original Spanish language. All I am saying is that it is relative—there are no actual native speakers of a language except those it originates from and the way they speak it. I would rather say I need an English speaker from one of the following countries: USA, Canada, UK or Australia.

[ollydave]

The first language thing is only relevant for students choosing to study at an English medium school

I don’t think that you are trying to argue, but I think you are trying to play with words in a way that makes it seem that there is no difference in a language that was learned from your first breath, and one that you may be somewhat proficient in.

Words mean things with absolute certainty. A first language can mean only one thing. The language you learned first.

We all have a first language, then the rest of what we learn. This is not even negotiable by playing with definitions.

Words mean things with absolute certainty. A first language can mean only one thing. The language you learned first.

We all have a first language, then the rest of what we learn. This is not even negotiable by playing with definitions.

Going by this definition, I am a “native English speaker”.

My local language was introduced to me at the age of 8. I heard, spoke and wrote only the english language before then. Right now, I am still learning my local language.

[newsmike]

Words mean things with absolute certainty. A first language can mean only one thing. The language you learned first.

We all have a first language, then the rest of what we learn. This is not even negotiable by playing with definitions.

Going by this definition, I am a “native English speaker”.

My local language was introduced to me at the age of 8. I heard, spoke and wrote only the english language before then. Right now, I am still learning my local language.

Agree. If you were born in Paris, but learned Italian only until you were 5, French would by no means be considered your first language. I think it comes down to what language you curse in when you hit your thumb with a hammer. 😀

[maitasun]

I understood your sarcasm after that roll eyes. I deliberately gave you the like. I can’t speak English with a Texan accent like he would. Neither can I speak Indian English like @amritamazumder if I did not grow up in that sphere. She is a native of that variant of English (Indian) which is peculiar to them, but that doesn’t make it ‘the English.’ There is ‘the English,’ and there are other ‘Englishes’ (permit my pluralisation). The US English, either with a Southern accent or not is not ‘the English’ but just one of the ‘Englishes.’ So, he can be a native of the variant of the English spoken in his area, just like me speaking Arabic doesn’t make me a native speaker of that language; the owners can tell the difference. If you want to know ‘the English,’ find those who gave the language to the world. He is a native speaker of US English. The OP asked, “Who is a native English speaker?” And I answered the original meaning, not the doctored meaning given to suit “western narrative.” Of course, there is the misconception among some that a native English speaker is someone from either the US, UK, Canada & Australia. However, I am narrowing it down to only the English people. An American is simply an American. Someone from the US can say he is a ‘native speaker of Spanish language.’ Whereas someone from Spain will say that is not true, we speak the original Spanish language. All I am saying is that it is relative—there are no actual native speakers of a language except those it originates from and the way they speak it. I would rather say I need an English speaker from one of the following countries: USA, Canada, UK or Australia.

I understood your sarcasm after that roll eyes. I deliberately gave you the like.

It wasn’t sarcasm, it was irony as I didn’t want to - and I hope I didn’t - insult you.

Having made this clear, let’s continue. First things first:

You didn’t answer my questions, I’m still sad…

I can’t speak English with a Texan accent like he would. Neither can I speak Indian English like @amritamazumder if I did not grow up in that sphere.

Being native has nothing to do with pronunciation, accent and whatever.

She is a native of that variant of English (Indian) which is peculiar to them, but that doesn’t make it ‘the English.’ There is ‘the English,’ and there are other ‘Englishes’ (permit my pluralisation).

Variation of a language - known as regionalism or dialect - is not a language! For instance, Italy has as much dialects as regions there are and still, italians of any region should be considered - and in fact they are - native italian speakers. Do they also speak dialect? Yes! But that doesn’t make them lose their native nature.

A variant originates from a common language but without a strong (or not exhibiting enough) differentiation from its common origin or compared to others of common origin.

BTW @amritamazumder is not native English speaker, she’s Indian so at most, she can only be considered bilingual no matter how good she is in English.

So, he can be a native of the variant of the English spoken in his area,

Sorry but there’s no such a thing as “native of the variant of the English spoken in his area” and this applies to any language.

Someone from the US can say he is a ‘native speaker of Spanish language.’ Whereas someone from Spain will say that is not true, we speak the original Spanish language.

Again, sorry but no! The Royal Spanish Academy officially recognizes all native spanish speakers as such and has acknowledged words and expressions from all over the spanish speaking world, thus, incorporating them to the spanish dictionary over the years, enriching in this way the language.

I would rather say I need an English speaker from one of the following countries: USA, Canada, UK or Australia.

At last we agree on something!

PS: I took the liberty to visit your profile. You’re from an unknown place and define yourself as native/bilingual in 2 English(es) (whatever that means), however, someone left you a review doubting you were native English speaker. Is it too much asking you which is, according to yourself, your native language?

[Guest offlinehelpers]

From the Cambridge English Dictionary:
someone who has spoken a particular language since they were a baby, rather than having learned it as a child or adult

I’ll be honest, I’ve found a number of posts on this thread uncomfortable to read, so I’m guessing the best answer is that if you feel you’re a native speaker/writer of your chosen language, so be it.

[fonthaunt]

I understood your sarcasm after that roll eyes. I deliberately gave you the like. I can’t speak English with a Texan accent like he would. Neither can I speak Indian English like @amritamazumder if I did not grow up in that sphere. She is a native of that variant of English (Indian) which is peculiar to them, but that doesn’t make it ‘the English.’ There is ‘the English,’ and there are other ‘Englishes’ (permit my pluralisation). The US English, either with a Southern accent or not is not ‘the English’ but just one of the ‘Englishes.’ So, he can be a native of the variant of the English spoken in his area, just like me speaking Arabic doesn’t make me a native speaker of that language; the owners can tell the difference. If you want to know ‘the English,’ find those who gave the language to the world. He is a native speaker of US English. The OP asked, “Who is a native English speaker?” And I answered the original meaning, not the doctored meaning given to suit “western narrative.” Of course, there is the misconception among some that a native English speaker is someone from either the US, UK, Canada & Australia. However, I am narrowing it down to only the English people. An American is simply an American. Someone from the US can say he is a ‘native speaker of Spanish language.’ Whereas someone from Spain will say that is not true, we speak the original Spanish language. All I am saying is that it is relative—there are no actual native speakers of a language except those it originates from and the way they speak it. I would rather say I need an English speaker from one of the following countries: USA, Canada, UK or Australia.

he can be a native of the variant of the English spoken in his area, just like me speaking Arabic doesn’t make me a native speaker of that language; the owners can tell the difference. If you want to know ‘the English,’ find those who gave the language to the world.

You obviously haven’t actually studied Indo-European languages or the entire history of the English language. I have a BA degree in English (which does not make me a native speaker) and I did the source of Indo-European languages in both graduate and post-graduate levels. Simply put, you are incorrect.

I answered the original meaning, not the doctored meaning given to suit “western narrative.”

This is borderline offensive.

[fonthaunt]

From the Cambridge English Dictionary:

someone who has spoken a particular language since they were a baby, rather than having learned it as a child or adult

I’ll be honest, I’ve found a number of posts on this thread uncomfortable to read, so I’m guessing the best answer is that if you feel you’re a native speaker/writer of your chosen language, so be it.

I’ve found a number of posts on this thread uncomfortable to read

I found it to be an interesting discussion when people were being reasonable, discussing the topic, and being honest about when they were joking. Unfortunately, others seem to be spinning fiction out of thin air and really intend to call it fact. I didn’t want to close this thread too early since it was popular, but I’d like to see if others would like it closed. Here’s a poll to see current reader opinion:

• Would you like this thread closed to new comments right away?
• Would you like this thread to remain open to new comments for a longer period of time?
• Other: No need for direct comments as I’d like this to remain anonymous but feel free to choose this if the other options don’t suit you.

0voters

[ollydave]

Agree. If you were born in Paris, but learned Italian only until you were 5, French would by no means be considered your first language. I think it comes down to what language you curse in when you hit your thumb with a hammer. 😀

Haha. Good one. To be sincere, I don’t classify myself as a native speaker. I am fluent. However, I curse, think, and even dream in English, haha.

[nikavoice]

120 posts later…

Reading thru this thread was like a 🎢 rollercoaster ride.

My reaction was like…

😲
:roll_eyes:
😎
😆
😡
😱
🤯
😳
👿

Now, I’m like 🐼 coz I’m muting this thread. 😁

Oh, I’m a native gibberish speaker! 🍹

🎧 Listening to Dr. Dre & Eminem “Forgot about Dre”

[fonthaunt]

120 posts later…

Reading thru this thread was like a 🎢 rollercoaster ride.

My reaction was like…

😲

:roll_eyes:

😎

😆

😡

😱

🤯

😳

👿

Now, I’m like 🐼 coz I’m muting this thread. 😁

Oh, I’m a native gibberish speaker! 🍹

🎧 Listening to Dr. Dre & Eminem “Forgot about Dre”

With 10 voters and the majority voting for closure, I’m guessing a lot of people are muting are are annoyed by this thread. So - I’ll see if I can issue a cease and desist order. 😉

[fonthaunt]

With incoming complaints about this thread in addition to comments saying that it was making readers uncomfortable or upset, I ran a poll to see what the current reader opinion is. 10 votes came in within minutes and 80% voted to end this, so the thread is now closed.