The Uber Decision and the Gig Economy - Handle With Care

[eoinfinnegan]

Someone mentioned the UK employment tribunal regarding Uber and driver rights.
BBC News

Uber loses appeal against drivers' rights

The firm's drivers should get workers' rights including holiday and sick pay, a tribunal rules.

Essentially, what has happened is that the tribunal ruled that

“any Uber driver who had the Uber app switched on was working for the company under a “worker” contract”.

There is a bit more to it than that and I personally don’t see the case as something that will directly affect Fiverr, but I think it is worth discussing.

My own opinion is that freelancers/self employed gig economy workers need to be very careful about what we wish for. The points being made tend to focus on worker’s rights such as holiday pay, sick pay etc. What is seldom mentioned in the discussion is what happens when the employer might then decide to focus on their own rights and expectations as employers (if this does actually happen).

For example, at the moment Uber requires drivers to take 80% of fares assigned to them. This is one of the key parts of the ruling as it is seen to dictate the “employee’s” working hours. However, this percentage is only applied when the driver marks themselves as available for work. What if, after this ruling, Uber decides that as an employer, it requires its workers to be available for 8 hours per day? What if that becomes a fixed time on a 24 hour rota where they will be assigned 8 hours at any time of the day or night, like most taxi companies have their drivers on? Is that worth putting up with in order to qualify for holiday pay and sick leave? For me the answer would be no.

We are likely to hear a lot more about this in the coming months and as the Gig economy is still in its infancy, expect a lot more cases like this to happen. My overall feeling on this is that many people who were employees decided that they liked the good parts of being self employed such as the freedom to choose working hours and conditions. However, these same people are now becoming aware of the negative aspects of self employment and have decided they want the best of both worlds.

Maybe it will happen that a happy medium can be reached but I think we all need to be cautious about how this pans out. These rulings tend to be decided on individual cases and these can have massive effects on whole industries. The Uber ruling comes about based on a case by 68 drivers out of Uber’s 50,000 UK drivers! With that in mind, as always in Fiverr and other gig economy platforms, we need to take care and keep abreast of what is happening around us, while ensuring we have set up our own safety net should some such ruling like this take effect and change the whole way things work.

I’m not saying that things should never change, just that we need to be prepared for the consequences of the actions, as well as the benefits that are being sought.
I’m really interested in people’s thoughts on this and whether you would like to see a more employer/employee based relationship with gig economy platforms, and whether you do or not, why?

[misscrystal]

Someone mentioned the UK employment tribunal regarding Uber and driver rights.

BBC News

Uber loses appeal against drivers' rights

The firm's drivers should get workers' rights including holiday and sick pay, a tribunal rules.

Essentially, what has happened is that the tribunal ruled that

“any Uber driver who had the Uber app switched on was working for the company under a “worker” contract”.

There is a bit more to it than that and I personally don’t see the case as something that will directly affect Fiverr, but I think it is worth discussing.

My own opinion is that freelancers/self employed gig economy workers need to be very careful about what we wish for. The points being made tend to focus on worker’s rights such as holiday pay, sick pay etc. What is seldom mentioned in the discussion is what happens when the employer might then decide to focus on their own rights and expectations as employers (if this does actually happen).

For example, at the moment Uber requires drivers to take 80% of fares assigned to them. This is one of the key parts of the ruling as it is seen to dictate the “employee’s” working hours. However, this percentage is only applied when the driver marks themselves as available for work. What if, after this ruling, Uber decides that as an employer, it requires its workers to be available for 8 hours per day? What if that becomes a fixed time on a 24 hour rota where they will be assigned 8 hours at any time of the day or night, like most taxi companies have their drivers on? Is that worth putting up with in order to qualify for holiday pay and sick leave? For me the answer would be no.

We are likely to hear a lot more about this in the coming months and as the Gig economy is still in its infancy, expect a lot more cases like this to happen. My overall feeling on this is that many people who were employees decided that they liked the good parts of being self employed such as the freedom to choose working hours and conditions. However, these same people are now becoming aware of the negative aspects of self employment and have decided they want the best of both worlds.

Maybe it will happen that a happy medium can be reached but I think we all need to be cautious about how this pans out. These rulings tend to be decided on individual cases and these can have massive effects on whole industries. The Uber ruling comes about based on a case by 68 drivers out of Uber’s 50,000 UK drivers! With that in mind, as always in Fiverr and other gig economy platforms, we need to take care and keep abreast of what is happening around us, while ensuring we have set up our own safety net should some such ruling like this take effect and change the whole way things work.

I’m not saying that things should never change, just that we need to be prepared for the consequences of the actions, as well as the benefits that are being sought.

I’m really interested in people’s thoughts on this and whether you would like to see a more employer/employee based relationship with gig economy platforms, and whether you do or not, why?

I’m really interested in people’s thoughts on this and whether you would like to see a more employer/employee based relationship with gig economy platforms, and whether you do or not, why?

No absolutely not. I feel that legally fiverr is acting as an employer due to how it is now regulating so much of how we work on the platform, as far as US regulations. On the other hand fiverr would have to pay for half of our federal taxes if we are employees, so in that way it would be an advantage, but I love being self employed.

They would also have to comply with minimum wage requirements, which vary from state to state. Fiverr surely has lawyers in the US that tell them how this works.

If we are self employed independent contractors, as the IRS calls it, then no one should be telling us how we have to work, how often we have to answer messages, how many cancellations we can have, etc. At least that is my understanding of it.

I don’t think this is strictly enforced however.

Maybe the rules are different when it is an internet platform which has terms of service regulating use of the site.

[eoinfinnegan]

I’m really interested in people’s thoughts on this and whether you would like to see a more employer/employee based relationship with gig economy platforms, and whether you do or not, why?

No absolutely not. I feel that legally fiverr is acting as an employer due to how it is now regulating so much of how we work on the platform, as far as US regulations. On the other hand fiverr would have to pay for half of our federal taxes if we are employees, so in that way it would be an advantage, but I love being self employed.

They would also have to comply with minimum wage requirements, which vary from state to state. Fiverr surely has lawyers in the US that tell them how this works.

If we are self employed independent contractors, as the IRS calls it, then no one should be telling us how we have to work, how often we have to answer messages, how many cancellations we can have, etc. At least that is my understanding of it.

I don’t think this is strictly enforced however.

Maybe the rules are different when it is an internet platform which has terms of service regulating use of the site.

Fiverr surely has lawyers in the US that tell them how this works.

I think the issue is that the law is just getting its head around the gig economy and does not have much directly applicable to the gig economy. It is very unlikely that governments will step in to create a regulatory system and so individual rulings on cases like the Uber UK situation will be what actually dictates the law - case law as it is known. Case law can have extreme effects in short periods of time, unlike government regulation which tends to be talked about over much longer periods of time so companies and individuals can make changes and plan around it.

If we are self employed independent contractors, as the IRS calls it, then no one should be telling us how we have to work

This is exactly the crux of the issue. The level at which a company dictates the way things work for users is what was used in the Uber case. The question as I see it is whether Fiverr is controlling the use of its platform or controlling those who use the platform.

[indieoven]

Fiverr surely has lawyers in the US that tell them how this works.

I think the issue is that the law is just getting its head around the gig economy and does not have much directly applicable to the gig economy. It is very unlikely that governments will step in to create a regulatory system and so individual rulings on cases like the Uber UK situation will be what actually dictates the law - case law as it is known. Case law can have extreme effects in short periods of time, unlike government regulation which tends to be talked about over much longer periods of time so companies and individuals can make changes and plan around it.

If we are self employed independent contractors, as the IRS calls it, then no one should be telling us how we have to work

This is exactly the crux of the issue. The level at which a company dictates the way things work for users is what was used in the Uber case. The question as I see it is whether Fiverr is controlling the use of its platform or controlling those who use the platform.

The question as I see it is whether Fiverr is controlling the use of its platform or controlling those who use the platform.

I don´t think it is possible to control who uses the platform. By doing constant updates, enhancements (or messing up), they are definitely trying to control how the platform works.

For example, the ´´available now´´ update. Sure it is awesome for someone but horrible for someone else. As independent workers, we get to choose how the tools available on this site (or any other site) can help us develop our career or work.

If Fiverr or any other platform/app/system will start assuming bigger responsibilities with independent contractors, then we should start thinking about a new term.

Yes, sounds pretty awesome knowing that they should take care of stuff like vacations, health, etc. But at what cost? I wouldn´t change my work freedom for that.

I do believe there’s a lot to do regarding freelancer laws and general rules, how the gig system works either on this platforms or any other or as an individual contractor working on our own outside.

Why does it have to be black or white always?

Wish there could be a balance.

[misscrystal]

Fiverr surely has lawyers in the US that tell them how this works.

I think the issue is that the law is just getting its head around the gig economy and does not have much directly applicable to the gig economy. It is very unlikely that governments will step in to create a regulatory system and so individual rulings on cases like the Uber UK situation will be what actually dictates the law - case law as it is known. Case law can have extreme effects in short periods of time, unlike government regulation which tends to be talked about over much longer periods of time so companies and individuals can make changes and plan around it.

If we are self employed independent contractors, as the IRS calls it, then no one should be telling us how we have to work

This is exactly the crux of the issue. The level at which a company dictates the way things work for users is what was used in the Uber case. The question as I see it is whether Fiverr is controlling the use of its platform or controlling those who use the platform.

The question as I see it is whether Fiverr is controlling the use of its platform or controlling those who use the platform.

Other internet companies are deciding not to challenge the IRS and are acting strictly as non-employers with no rules for those who contribute work on the platform. There are some articles on the internet about this. The IRS is not something to play around with.

It might be something that applies only to US fiverr sellers at some point.

[psychicbunny]

Uber is dope. Me and one of my girls were kind of tipsy after a night going out last month. Our driver bought us In N Out lol

[miiila]

I think that we´ve slid into the age of platform economy, wunderkinder like the big four, Uber etc. awing and blinding everyone with their novelty, encompassing success and all,
and now, that a lot of people and the regulating authorities even only start to grasp the concepts behind those multinational acting companies, this and other things are real issues now,
be it the employment/freelancer distinction, the big issue of giant companies like Amazon not paying their taxes where they make their revenue and ruining whole branches, of Google’s power, of Apple and the backdoors, FB’s data security lie, the renting situation in many places caused by AirBnB, all such issues have existed before, but not in such an easily visible dimension and across the globe.

Those companies amongst each other need to find ways how to handle each other (see Amazon – Fiverr, PayPal – Fiverr) and the world needs to find a way to handle them.

Today Uber’s drivers are regarded as employees, tomorrow maybe all Amazon sellers who only or mainly sell on Amazon, or them all, because Amazon tells them how many characters their product titles may have and delists their products from search if they do not comply or tells them they may not use a fashion picture in which the model has the arms not at his or her side?

Or will it eventually go the other way and the gig and platform economy will seep into the yet more conventional sectors? It´s a pretty interesting age, either way. I´m curious to see how this will unfold.

In the Uber case, from what I read, most or many drivers seem to have welcomed the decision, no idea how many sellers here on Fiverr would like to be employees, my hunch is not so many of the successful ones and a lot of the unsuccessful ones.

Would I like if Fiverr was my employer? Perhaps, I´m not sure, depends on the modalities; if I could keep working mostly like I do now, it should be okay; it´s nothing I´d aim for, though.
I´ve worked in a few jobs as an employee, and I didn´t like it much, I like being my own boss too much, I actually did say no to a few ‘real job’ offers I got from buyers during my time here.

Fiverr probably would do good treading a bit more careful in regard to regulations and issuing too meticulous instructions and such, to successfully skirt the muddy waters of pseudo self-employment if it doesn´t want to find itself in a uber-situation.
They do need to regulate their platform somewhat, obviously, anarchy won´t work either, but yeah, they might have some problems coming and better not ignore them. Isn´t the CEO a lawyer, though, so at the least there is one person in charge who will know about these developments? Let´s assume all those people message or s***e or whatever cross-department and sync, shall we?

[misscrystal]

I think that we´ve slid into the age of platform economy, wunderkinder like the big four, Uber etc. awing and blinding everyone with their novelty, encompassing success and all,

and now, that a lot of people and the regulating authorities even only start to grasp the concepts behind those multinational acting companies, this and other things are real issues now,

be it the employment/freelancer distinction, the big issue of giant companies like Amazon not paying their taxes where they make their revenue and ruining whole branches, of Google’s power, of Apple and the backdoors, FB’s data security lie, the renting situation in many places caused by AirBnB, all such issues have existed before, but not in such an easily visible dimension and across the globe.

Those companies amongst each other need to find ways how to handle each other (see Amazon – Fiverr, PayPal – Fiverr) and the world needs to find a way to handle them.

Today Uber’s drivers are regarded as employees, tomorrow maybe all Amazon sellers who only or mainly sell on Amazon, or them all, because Amazon tells them how many characters their product titles may have and delists their products from search if they do not comply or tells them they may not use a fashion picture in which the model has the arms not at his or her side?

Or will it eventually go the other way and the gig and platform economy will seep into the yet more conventional sectors? It´s a pretty interesting age, either way. I´m curious to see how this will unfold.

In the Uber case, from what I read, most or many drivers seem to have welcomed the decision, no idea how many sellers here on Fiverr would like to be employees, my hunch is not so many of the successful ones and a lot of the unsuccessful ones.

Would I like if Fiverr was my employer? Perhaps, I´m not sure, depends on the modalities; if I could keep working mostly like I do now, it should be okay; it´s nothing I´d aim for, though.

I´ve worked in a few jobs as an employee, and I didn´t like it much, I like being my own boss too much, I actually did say no to a few ‘real job’ offers I got from buyers during my time here.

Fiverr probably would do good treading a bit more careful in regard to regulations and issuing too meticulous instructions and such, to successfully skirt the muddy waters of pseudo self-employment if it doesn´t want to find itself in a uber-situation.

They do need to regulate their platform somewhat, obviously, anarchy won´t work either, but yeah, they might have some problems coming and better not ignore them. Isn´t the CEO a lawyer, though, so at the least there is one person in charge who will know about these developments? Let´s assume all those people message or s***e or whatever cross-department and sync, shall we?

Fiverr probably would do good treading a bit more careful in regard to regulations and issuing too meticulous instructions and such, to successfully skirt the muddy waters of pseudo self-employment if it doesn´t want to find itself in a uber-situation.

The question becomes who is actually hiring us and so far it’s not fiverr.

[miiila]

Fiverr probably would do good treading a bit more careful in regard to regulations and issuing too meticulous instructions and such, to successfully skirt the muddy waters of pseudo self-employment if it doesn´t want to find itself in a uber-situation.

The question becomes who is actually hiring us and so far it’s not fiverr.

That´s right, but I guess that´s what Uber thought as well, that as long as they only write lots of disclaimers into their ToS and the people who actually rent the car and driver aren´t them but individual clients, they are fine.

[lloydsolutions]

There is one major difference between Fiverr and Uber. Uber has a screening process … Fiverr doesn’t.

[misscrystal]

Fiverr Pro’s are more like employees since they are brought in from outside and vetted but still, who is actually hiring them? It’s not really fiverr although it’s a very fine line.

[indieoven]

Fiverr Pro’s are more like employees since they are brought in from outside and vetted but still, who is actually hiring them? It’s not really fiverr although it’s a very fine line.

Fiverr Pro’s are more like employees since they are brought in from outside and vetted

That´s an interesting point of view.

Maybe there are other things that define teh difference between an employee and a freelancer or independent worker. Having the option to accept or reject new projects. Choosing a working time, available hours, how much to charge, when is time for vacation or a break, being able to manage teh project directly with the client - within the rules of teh website we´ve all agreed. Taking care of our business expenses, including fiverr´s fee, other tools, software, whatever we use to work online, etc.

Yes, some of those choices come with consequences depending on how we do it - but we all agreed to that the moment we signed up.

I think that is not only the level of commitment we have with the site but how we get to use it and how it affect us professionally speaking.

[misscrystal]

Fiverr Pro’s are more like employees since they are brought in from outside and vetted

That´s an interesting point of view.

Maybe there are other things that define teh difference between an employee and a freelancer or independent worker. Having the option to accept or reject new projects. Choosing a working time, available hours, how much to charge, when is time for vacation or a break, being able to manage teh project directly with the client - within the rules of teh website we´ve all agreed. Taking care of our business expenses, including fiverr´s fee, other tools, software, whatever we use to work online, etc.

Yes, some of those choices come with consequences depending on how we do it - but we all agreed to that the moment we signed up.

I think that is not only the level of commitment we have with the site but how we get to use it and how it affect us professionally speaking.

According to the IRS it’s very simple. If someone tells anyone how much or often to work or tells them HOW to work in any way, they are an employer. And we seem to be paid by fiverr, since they deduct some money from what we get and send us the rest.

I think it just is not enforced consistently.

[indieoven]

According to the IRS it’s very simple. If someone tells anyone how much or often to work or tells them HOW to work in any way, they are an employer. And we seem to be paid by fiverr, since they deduct some money from what we get and send us the rest.

I think it just is not enforced consistently.

If someone tells anyone how much or often to work or tells them HOW to work in any way, he or she is an employer.

Oh, I didn´t know that.

Jeezz, this gets more complicated with time.

Well fiverr is very specific about the How. The how many parts, maybe…or at least not directly. But the system for response rate and ticking clock makes me wonder.

[lucycodex]

How would holiday pay and sick leave even work when it comes to something like Uber, where you can choose when you want to work and for how long?

[uk1000]

How would holiday pay and sick leave even work when it comes to something like Uber, where you can choose when you want to work and for how long?

You’d get a payment when you are sick/on holiday instead of no payment (which I assume is what they get now). Maybe they’d have to take a percentage (or more complex calc than a percentage) out of the money you earn for each fare to cover this.

[misscrystal]

I don’t expect the IRS will enforce this in the coming three years due to the political climate of laxity and lack of morale in the government in general. We are in a free for all climate in business. Businesses can do anything they want right now although how much this attitude has infiltrated the IRS I’m not sure. I’ve known some businesses that had offices employees had to report to and work at that treated them as independent contractors and got away with it.

[lucycodex]

You’d get a payment when you are sick/on holiday instead of no payment (which I assume is what they get now). Maybe they’d have to take a percentage (or more complex calc than a percentage) out of the money you earn for each fare to cover this.

That makes zero sense to me though. If I only use uber 3 times a week to drive someone, and get paid for an hour each day, because I would use Uber for spending money. How do I convince Uber that I would otherwise have turned on my Uber app but couldn’t because I was too sick to drive?

This would only make sense if you used uber 5-7 days a week, and for 40+ hours a week.

[writer99025]

Eoin, people who are successful and make the most money in freelancing or business are those who make the least noise, go with the flow and adapt to the situation, whatever it is. You are one of those people, as is MissC, I am to an extent. Whatever happens, we will adapt, and we will survive.

[abauer5188]

Eoin, people who are successful and make the most money in freelancing or business are those who make the least noise, go with the flow and adapt to the situation, whatever it is. You are one of those people, as is MissC, I am to an extent. Whatever happens, we will adapt, and we will survive.

I’m not one of those people. I’m relatively new to Fiverr, but I’ve done some freelancing in the past. I’m by no means successful, but I understand business and respect business decisions (when they make sense).

[fastcopywriter]

For most people, Fiverr, Uber, Lyft, etc, are just part-time things, sometimes for as little as one hour a day.

We’re not employees on Fiverr, we have the freedom to reject orders. You don’t have to proofread a 30 page book if you don’t want to. You don’t have to make logos for alcohol or tobacco. Maybe your client wanted a Black Friday e-mail but he didn’t give you any offer, and you decided the project was more trouble than it was worth.

Because we’re not employees, we don’t deserve holiday, sick pay, etc.

“What if, after this ruling, Uber decides that as an employer, it requires its workers to be available for 8 hours per day?”

I don’t think Uber can do that, if they did, a lot of drivers would quit the platform. Uber and Lyft aren’t stupid companies, they are making millions from people working at all hours.

I am more concerned with Fiverr’s new standards. Their 90% order completion rate minimum. I was messaged by a very successful seller on Fiverr with two gigs, who makes a lot of money but has an 86% completion rate. Fiverr needs to look at the statistics of successful buyers, punishing people who make a lot of money for the company is not a smart business decision.

[misscrystal]

For most people, Fiverr, Uber, Lyft, etc, are just part-time things, sometimes for as little as one hour a day.

We’re not employees on Fiverr, we have the freedom to reject orders. You don’t have to proofread a 30 page book if you don’t want to. You don’t have to make logos for alcohol or tobacco. Maybe your client wanted a Black Friday e-mail but he didn’t give you any offer, and you decided the project was more trouble than it was worth.

Because we’re not employees, we don’t deserve holiday, sick pay, etc.

“What if, after this ruling, Uber decides that as an employer, it requires its workers to be available for 8 hours per day?”

I don’t think Uber can do that, if they did, a lot of drivers would quit the platform. Uber and Lyft aren’t stupid companies, they are making millions from people working at all hours.

I am more concerned with Fiverr’s new standards. Their 90% order completion rate minimum. I was messaged by a very successful seller on Fiverr with two gigs, who makes a lot of money but has an 86% completion rate. Fiverr needs to look at the statistics of successful buyers, punishing people who make a lot of money for the company is not a smart business decision.

When I reject $5 orders from all the buyers who don’t read the gig description they often come back and purchase the extras. Do I do the work even though it is not what is offered for $5, or reject the order and then they come back and order something for $45? or $115?

[fastcopywriter]

When I reject $5 orders from all the buyers who don’t read the gig description they often come back and purchase the extras. Do I do the work even though it is not what is offered for $5, or reject the order and then they come back and order something for $45? or $115?

That’s strange. Whenever I get an order, I always check the buyer’s history. I had one guy who never liked my work and always got a refund. The last time he ordered, I didn’t do the work, I refunded right away, and told him that he can’t order again. Luckily for me, he didn’t.

Still, things like this affect order completion rate.

[idostuff4u]

Very interesting topic. Sometimes I feel like I’m self-employed and other times I feel like I’m working for fiverr.

However, I don’t make a very good employee. 😁

How many of us sellers are constantly on our “best behaviour” because we feel like we will be punished for being rude to a buyer?

Maybe its just a conspiracy theory, but after I recovered from a brief illness, my patients for “not so good buyers” grew really short. Yes, I may have been rude to a couple of them and now it seems I’m being punished for it (with fiverr’s secret buyer review system n’ all). For the first time in 5 years, I’ve gone an entire 30+ days with no income.

Fiverr is in control. (or maybe the ones I was rude to, told the world about me) 😛

If I have to be an employee, under the “control” of the employer, Maybe a yearly profit share would work instead of paid vacation and sick leave. (just saying)

[fastcopywriter]

Very interesting topic. Sometimes I feel like I’m self-employed and other times I feel like I’m working for fiverr.

However, I don’t make a very good employee. 😁

How many of us sellers are constantly on our “best behaviour” because we feel like we will be punished for being rude to a buyer?

Maybe its just a conspiracy theory, but after I recovered from a brief illness, my patients for “not so good buyers” grew really short. Yes, I may have been rude to a couple of them and now it seems I’m being punished for it (with fiverr’s secret buyer review system n’ all). For the first time in 5 years, I’ve gone an entire 30+ days with no income.

Fiverr is in control. (or maybe the ones I was rude to, told the world about me) 😛

If I have to be an employee, under the “control” of the employer, Maybe a yearly profit share would work instead of paid vacation and sick leave. (just saying)

My behavior has changed a lot over the years. Fiverr itself has changed a lot over time, buyers are more likely to report you to customer service, it’s easier than ever, there’s even a “report” button next to every comment in a conversation or order.

I’m not against Fiverr setting their own rules, it’s their platform, but the rules have to be reasonable, easy to follow, and sensible. I saw a woman defending the new level standards, and even demanding they be higher for TRS.

Fiverr needs to do more to protect the sellers. The buyers are already protected well enough.