Another golden goose quitting Fiverr. Is this a trend?

[markp]

48 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

On a connected yet side note, I'm always curious about sellers who tout massive numbers but also have teams. I don't think they tell the whole story. I've been considering a lot how to scale, interviewing some people etc, but have been looking at the numbers to work out if it's worth it.

So let's have a hypothetical if I were to make 350K in a year with a team doing the heavy lifting...

Minus 20% fee = $70K

Let's assume you pay 50% of the gig value to another freelancer as the fee (I think this is actually low but let's give the benefit of the doubt)  = $175K

You're a volume seller, so you need a VA (or 2), and a team manager. Let's say you hire cheap, @$10K per person per year = $30K (and you're not paying your manager a commission which most ask for).

Let's ignore software costs to manage this team, bank/FX fees, increased accountancy costs and all the other little things that you end up paying for. We're also ignoring promoted gigs, and seller plus fee.

We have $350K - $275K = $75K. That's before tax.

You can do it much cheaper than this, operating differently from what you described. There are some really hard lessons to learn doing this, and at some point, you have to consider other things like your mental health as well because doing this, scaling to 7 figures plus, will eventually drive you into the ground, one way or another.

[visualstudios]

1 hour ago, williambryan392 said:

Now I'm not knocking it, kudos, if you can build something great, who doesn't like $75K and if you aren't even touching the business due to the hires then that 75K pre tax for probably just doing a weekly or monthly check in with a team manager is pretty darn good. 

I'm working on everything and not even making that. Sounds way too good, actually. Like... borderline unethical, to make so much money doing so little. But hey, people can get away with it, I guess.

[williambryan392]

57 minutes ago, markp said:

You can do it much cheaper than this, operating differently from what you described. There are some really hard lessons to learn doing this, and at some point, you have to consider other things like your mental health as well because doing this, scaling to 7 figures plus, will eventually drive you into the ground, one way or another.

Please go on! I'm curious re doing it cheaper (and still hiring capable people who can deliver a quality end result). How would you operate, if say you were a copywriter (and not just using AI)? Or use another freelance niche of course. Really curious!

To scale to 7 figures you have to delegate, and if you can pretty much disconnect yourself from the business then you can protect your mental health to a degree. Not saying you're wrong.

54 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Like... borderline unethical, to make so much money doing so little. But hey, people can get away with it, I guess.

Think it's only increasing in the world of property owners and business owners/CEOs. A million used to be considered a crazy amount of money when I was growing up, kinda like a 6 figure salary. Nowadays less so. Although I still think it's a lot of money!

[emmaki]

She was delegating to people on Fiverr for $5. There are people out there - Pros - who she approached (she never approached me) who she tried to browbeat into discounts. 

Wait for the big financial crash to hit that's overdue. The story of Weimar Germany illustrates point. 

[visualstudios]

22 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

Think it's only increasing in the world of property owners and business owners/CEOs. A million used to be considered a crazy amount of money when I was growing up, kinda like a 6 figure salary. Nowadays less so. Although I still think it's a lot of money!

Oh, I get that. I just don't understand how it's possible. It certainly cannot be possible for 99% of people, so what's the differentiating factor there? Everyone would want that, but that can't be achieved by the vast majority, so... how to ensure I'm in the minority that gets it? Because I don't see any path there.

[williambryan392]

6 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Oh, I get that. I just don't understand how it's possible. It certainly cannot be possible for 99% of people, so what's the differentiating factor there? Everyone would want that, but that can't be achieved by the vast majority, so... how to ensure I'm in the minority that gets it? Because I don't see any path there.

You're right, it's not possible, and that's for a variety of reasons. I think a lot of the time (not all the time) is because people don't take the risk or put in the work.

The overly simple answer is scale and delegate. If you can do something once in a day, work out how to do it 10 times, or a hundred times.

Also diversify. Something I've been thinking about is doing a course on career growth. It's a popular gig of mine, and I find a lot is transferrable to different clients. This would mean I could sell whilst I sleep. Could you do a course on video editing, could you sell tiktok shorts, and delegate the work, could you provide a voice over gig and delegate? You might not want to, but I think you could.

 

 

[emmaki]

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

Oh, I get that. I just don't understand how it's possible. It certainly cannot be possible for 99% of people, so what's the differentiating factor there? Everyone would want that, but that can't be achieved by the vast majority, so... how to ensure I'm in the minority that gets it? Because I don't see any path there.

This is the whole digital marketing hustle/influencer culture at the moment. In the quitting video, you can see it in action. She gives the basic strategy: as soon as you have a little experience, start selling digital products and influencing people. It's a modern-day pyramid scheme that requires a certain "cult of celebrity" to work, and, not to put to fine a point on it, requires a certain kind of personality and looks.

The thing that worries me is that generations of people are growing up believing that this is a viable career choice. It is, but it's like any other career that depends on fame and fortune. It's not one where just hard work will get you anywhere.

 Surely this is OK to approve. 

EDIT: just so anyone knows, 95% of my posts are being not approved at the moment on any subject I write. This includes on topic and helpful comments. I've made approximately 20 - 30 posts on here, and this is, I think the only one visible. 

I also made a post on this very subject last night before smash did. Didn't reveal the name of the person. Said pretty much the same stuff. I've said stuff under here. Let me just add that McDonald's is a real estate empire. They make a huge amount from real estate. It's not the burgers. That's like the front. Anyway, it's comments like these - adding extra information to a conversation that mysteriously get deleted. Why? I don't know. 

For example, in a comment further along in this discussion, I mentioned how digital marketing is often more of a celebrity thing based on a loose pyramid scheme that is wholly dependent on gaming algorithms - algorithms which often affect impressionable people and which are developed by social media companies who care about profits, not people. Visual Studios is right to find the business model iffy - it's socially damaging. Didn't mention Fiverr. Deleted. But if you post it, it's fine. The not-really-a-mystery at all continues.

At least they fixed the double post hidden post issue. I told them in another deleted comment that the issue was a plugin. Few hours later, repeated. No thanks, of course. I'm making an assumption that I helped to fix it. They're not terribly interested in the other (less visual) bug I've found, too. 

Go figure.

Edited May 1 by emmaki

[priyank_mod]

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

Like... borderline unethical, to make so much money doing so little. But hey, people can get away with it, I guess.

You just succinctly described the entire capitalism in a single statement. 💯

[visualstudios]

15 minutes ago, priyank_mod said:

You just succinctly described the entire capitalism in a single statement. 

Not necessarily. Capital allocation is one thing. I do see the value in having capital to invest. But being a middleman that creates nothing doesn't even provide that value, and has no capital requirements, pretty much. It's the difference between being a logistics provider (like amazon) and a dropshipper. The first provides value. The second is just garbage.

[visualstudios]

22 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

The overly simple answer is scale and delegate. If you can do something once in a day, work out how to do it 10 times, or a hundred times.

I don't even have enough clients to fill my schedule now, so that's a non factor. To scale, you need... scale.

[williambryan392]

1 minute ago, visualstudios said:

It's the difference between being a logistics provider (like amazon) and a dropshipper. The first provides value. The second is just garbage.

You're not necessarily wrong. I could argue that the dropshipper is providing value because if they weren't they wouldn't make sales. They are getting the product visibility. 

Either way what's your goal..? Wanna make money? I think that's the brutal question you have to ask yourself.

I've been asking myself the same recently and I'm trying to decide what to do...

5 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

I don't even have enough clients to fill my schedule now, so that's a non factor. To scale, you need... scale

I price highly, and do the work myself. Like you @visualstudios. It's a good income (recent volatility aside), but I've plateaued.

I feel that what I'm offering at my price point is like a fine dining restaurant. I'm very proud of what I do, and like to think I provide a great experience. But like a fine dining restaurant, there's a limit to how much you can actually make, and I price a lot of people out of my services. I think you do the same. If you lowered your prices you'd fill your schedule quickly, and if you delegated you'd get more time back.

So the question I ask myself is should I be more like McDonalds and lower my prices.

Sure, it'll never be brilliant, it may only ever be a 3.5 or 4 out of 5 (google rating for e.g.), but McDonalds is a billion dollar business. I don't think there is one fine dining restaurant that is because it's just not scalable in the same way. I'd be less proud of my finished product, but I'd sure like the money! 

I guess the key is finding the middle ground.

 

[visualstudios]

9 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

Either way what's your goal..? Wanna make money? I think that's the brutal question you have to ask yourself.

I've been asking myself the same recently and I'm trying to decide what to do...

Of course, but then we get into imposter syndrome, which is already bad as is - if I was doing nothing, or something I don't respect (like shorts and tiktok and ugc, which I truly think are actively harming society and are a blight to the art of video editing in general), it would be even worse.

 

9 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

If you lowered your prices you'd fill your schedule quickly, and if you delegated you'd get more time back.

So the question I ask myself is should I be more like McDonalds and lower my prices.

Sure, it'll never be brilliant, it may only ever be a 3.5 or 4 out of 5 (google rating for e.g.), but McDonalds is a billion dollar business. I don't think there is one fine dining restaurant that is because it's just not scalable in the same way. I'd be less proud of my finished product, but I'd sure like the money! 

Outside of a platform like Fiverr, for sure. Here? Not so much, because I would be increasing risk immensely. Something I learned very fast was to vet heavily and up prices to get rid of nightmare clients, which can tank your business. McDonalds can make billions while being considered c**p, and having a 3 star average review. You can't make that here - here that means you'll go to zero, fast.

You can't be McDonalds here. Fiverr is the McDonalds. Look at their reviews (for the platform itself), they don't need to worry about having 4.7 average. They wish they could get 3, actually. It doesn't matter. They still grow.

We are just the burgers.

Edited May 1 by visualstudios

[williambryan392]

8 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Of course, but then we get into imposter syndrome,

This I completely get. But then I see people with half the knowledge/experience selling bad advice and making a fortune. I often say sometimes the most successful people are the most stupid, because they don't overthink, they just execute.

 

11 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Outside of a platform like Fiverr, for sure.

So do it! Test it! See what happens. We always say don't put your eggs in one basket. Growing in multiple places is a good thing to do.

 

12 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

You can't be McDonalds here. Fiverr is the McDonalds.

McDonalds is an extreme example, and probably a bad one for me to have used. My point is there are some sellers making a fortune through efficient methods and low pricing, and they don't have bad reviews. I always think if they can do it then why can't I. 

[visualstudios]

5 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

My point is there are some sellers making a fortune through efficient methods and low pricing, and they don't have bad reviews. I always think if they can do it then why can't I. 

That's the million dollar question. I have no idea, honestly. I've had people give me trouble and be extremely nitpicky with no reason, and then I look at other sellers delivering garbage with no issues. I don't get it.

[donnovan86]

2 minutes ago, williambryan392 said:

My point is there are some sellers making a fortune through efficient methods and low pricing, and they don't have bad reviews. I always think if they can do it then why can't I. 

I think there was a logo seller that was touting here (on the forum) that he was making $32k a month. And he had low prices, around $20 or so at the time of that post, maybe less. However, he was also saying that he has quite a lot of people doing the work for him, so I doubt he was even working on any logos. But obviously, that person never mentioned any outsourcing on their profile, they just said "me", "I", etc. This kind of stuff is unfair towards sellers that work alone, there's no way you can deliver 1 article a minute or one logo a minute like that person did.

Yes, eventually he got banned/removed from the website years later. But I want to say that yes, there are people that found effective methods to outsource at a very cheap rate, and due to the volume, their reviews were very high even if there were plenty of unhappy customers. But when you have 100 reviews a day, bad reviews are easily pushed back. 

I think the new Success Score and recent changes made this type of stuff a lot harder, but there are still tons of people that outsource and barely do any work. They might have another side hustle and, if we are talking about the same golden goose, they even hire someone they trust/know to manage their account while they travel or do other things. 

As for a quick side not, @emmaki, we are in May and the price for Seller Plus Premium hasn't changed in the dashboard. Did you receive a reply from Fiverr regarding this? 

[visualstudios]

54 minutes ago, emmaki said:

This is the whole digital marketing hustle/influencer culture at the moment. In the quitting video, you can see it in action. She gives the basic strategy: as soon as you have a little experience, start selling digital products and influencing people. It's a modern-day pyramid scheme that requires a certain "cult of celebrity" to work, and, not to put to fine a point on it, requires a certain kind of personality and looks.

The thing that worries me is that generations of people are growing up believing that this is a viable career choice. It is, but it's like any other career that depends on fame and fortune. It's not one where just hard work will get you anywhere.

Yep. I'm not cut for that. There's a reason my name here is visual studios, and my profile picture is a logo. I don't want to show up. I don't want to be my business. I don't want personal branding. 

The "influencer lifestyle" is a cancer. Not everyone should be famous. Not everyone should need to be seen and known. Most people (me included) have nothing of interest to say to the world. We're all screwed.

[visualstudios]

Maybe I should start an anti-motivational channel, where I show on camera with a sock on my head and distorted voice and say stuff like "You're not special. Give up. You don't have the skills, nor the ability to even get them. The world doesn't care about you or your opinions. Get a normal job. The 1% is the 1% for a reason - because most can't be part of it, you included." 

Many more people need to hear that than the positive thinking and hustle scam they are all being bombarded with in social media 24/7.

Because at least it's true. But people don't want the truth. Truth doesn't sell.

Edited May 1 by visualstudios

[donnovan86]

2 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

I have no idea, honestly. I've had people give me trouble and be extremely nitpicky with no reason, and then I look at other sellers delivering garbage with no issues.

It depends on expectations. Some people charge very low and use AI for most of their work, so they can deliver fast. There are cases when buyers just don't care, if the price is low enough. However, there are also people that are nitpicky even at a low price. So it's more of a gamble in regards to who you are working with. For me, the most troublesome buyers are those that get hired by someone else and outsource to you. Those are the hardest people to work with, because they have to talk with their client, revert back to you, maybe they don't understand the exact changes, etc... and it leads to a lot of back and forth, not to mention wasted time. It does depend on the niche too.

[visualstudios]

2 minutes ago, donnovan86 said:

It depends on expectations. Some people charge very low and use AI for most of their work, so they can deliver fast. There are cases when buyers just don't care, if the price is low enough. However, there are also people that are nitpicky even at a low price. So it's more of a gamble in regards to who you are working with. For me, the most troublesome buyers are those that get hired by someone else and outsource to you. Those are the hardest people to work with, because they have to talk with their client, revert back to you, maybe they don't understand the exact changes, etc... and it leads to a lot of back and forth, not to mention wasted time. It does depend on the niche too.

I had by far the most pita clients the lower my prices were. That's why I'm not willing to go back to that. The more the client is paying, the better they are to work with, on average. That's why I don't get the low price high volume sellers, how does that not turn into a nightmare for them?

[emmaki]

On 5/1/2024 at 6:08 AM, donnovan86 said:

I think there was a logo seller that was touting here (on the forum) that he was making $32k a month. And he had low prices, around $20 or so at the time of that post, maybe less. However, he was also saying that he has quite a lot of people doing the work for him, so I doubt he was even working on any logos. But obviously, that person never mentioned any outsourcing on their profile, they just said "me", "I", etc. This kind of stuff is unfair towards sellers that work alone, there's no way you can deliver 1 article a minute or one logo a minute like that person did.

Yes, eventually he got banned/removed from the website years later. But I want to say that yes, there are people that found effective methods to outsource at a very cheap rate, and due to the volume, their reviews were very high even if there were plenty of unhappy customers. But when you have 100 reviews a day, bad reviews are easily pushed back. 

I think the new Success Score and recent changes made this type of stuff a lot harder, but there are still tons of people that outsource and barely do any work. They might have another side hustle and, if we are talking about the same golden goose, they even hire someone they trust/know to manage their account while they travel or do other things. 

As for a quick side not, @emmaki, we are in May and the price for Seller Plus Premium hasn't changed in the dashboard. Did you receive a reply from Fiverr regarding this? 

"It was a mistake and the price is still breaking EU Consumer Law"

They didn't say the last bit. But they have now gone from potentially breaking EU Consumer Law to definitely breaking it. 

I doubt this comment will get approved. You'll just have to remain in the dark. 

[emmaki]

13 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Maybe I should start an anti-motivational channel, where I show on camera with a sock on my head and distorted voice and say stuff like "You're not special. Give up. You don't have the skills, nor the ability to even get them. The world doesn't care about you or your opinions. Get a normal job. The 1% is the 1% for a reason - because most can't be part of it, you included." 

Many more people need to hear that than the positive thinking and hustle scam they are all being bombarded with in social media 24/7.

Because at least it's true. But people don't want the truth. Truth doesn't sell.

I disagree with this. Everyone has something and the great disappointment with the modern education system around the world is that it does not prioritize finding that thing that any one individual has. The modern education system is, of course, a relic based on the needs of factory owners in the early 20th century; designed to bring up generations of obedient people who didn't question authority and who had some basic general knowledge. Yes, it has evolved since then, but only because higher education has become a cash cow for greedy elites. But that's another story. 

We all have something, and we should all be supported in finding that something. However, the world as it is today will never support this. It is governed by money and the need to feed into a system that works on money alone - breaking out of it is  very tough. 

In any case, the whole influencer thing, which is really how the social media/video thing works, is not,obviously, going to work for anyone. Not even micro-influencers. You need a certain skill set. Expertise is a minor thing you can add. We all know that anyone can fake expertise or borrow other people's expertise. The important thing is to sell the illusion and convince people, whether that's advertisers or your fawning audience. 

EDIT: I struggle to understand why this post was approved but my prior one, which said much the same thing albeit through the lens of social media's destruction of the younger generations minds didn't. I also struggle to see why these posts are somehow more approvable than the... 20-odd other posts I've made in this specific post that have been deleted? Or that the topic I made on this very topic prior to Smash was deleted? Help me to understand you and what you want, so I can post top-notch content, rather than just throwing words at a wall and wondering what's OK and what's not. 

You might want to fix that editing posts doesn't get the post re-hidden, too. Just sayin'. Seems like a loophole someone could take advantage of. Would you like me to look it up in the documentation for the forum software for you? It certainly helped with the double-posting bug, not that I heard a thanks for that, but I'll let it slide other than mentioning it lots of times. 

Edited May 1 by emmaki

[visualstudios]

14 minutes ago, emmaki said:

Everyone has something 

You should meet some people I've met lol.

In any case, I'm talking about something the world needs to know. It's simple mathematics. If 7 billion people need air time, there isn't enough in a lifetime for everyone. By definition, not everyone can have even 15 minutes of fame - warhol was wrong about that. Maybe a fraction of a second. Fact is, most people can't have a spot. For one person to have 1000 people following them, 1000 in 1001 people must be followers.

Edited May 1 by visualstudios

[smashradio]

2 hours ago, williambryan392 said:

Please go on! I'm curious re doing it cheaper (and still hiring capable people who can deliver a quality end result). How would you operate, if say you were a copywriter (and not just using AI)? Or use another freelance niche of course. Really curious!

To scale to 7 figures you have to delegate, and if you can pretty much disconnect yourself from the business then you can protect your mental health to a degree. Not saying you're wrong.

Think it's only increasing in the world of property owners and business owners/CEOs. A million used to be considered a crazy amount of money when I was growing up, kinda like a 6 figure salary. Nowadays less so. Although I still think it's a lot of money!

Scaling can be tough. But I also know freelancers who charge $20K for a project that you or I would typically quote at $2,000, simply because they've positioned themselves as the go-to option for ultra high net worth clients or Fortune 500 companies, dealing mostly with top-tier professionals in their industries. If a consultant successfully manages to demonstrate value though price alone, they can easily command such fees for basic work. Take the case where Norway's TV2 shelled out $2.7 million for a new logo that nobody liked.

They could have gone on Fiverr and would probably get a better logo for 200 bucks. But they didn't, because such companies will hire a consultant instead. Preferably someone charging millions. It doesn't matter if the logo is ugly to them. It was probably concocted by some "modern consultant" lounging on their skinny, pretentious Scandinavian designer chair, churning out lousy million-dollar ideas all day long.

So, even if you’re not very talented, you can still charge exorbitant rates, and it seems the higher your rates, the larger the clients you attract. If you want to scale, don’t do it by hiring a bunch of people at $10K a year. Instead, just charge $10K to show up (or don't show up at all, and call it a "part of your process".)

The small minority who makes it to this point, did it thanks to:

 

 

[visualstudios]

3 minutes ago, smashradio said:

If you want to scale, don’t do it by hiring a bunch of people at $10K a year. Instead, just charge $10K to show up (or don't show up at all, and call it a "part of your process".)

 

That sounds great, but I'm having trouble getting anyone to bite at those prices.

And my chair is scandinavian btw, but I don't think IKEA counts as pretentious enough.

Edited May 1 by visualstudios

[emmaki]

Just now, visualstudios said:

That sounds great, but I'm having trouble getting anyone to bite at those prices.

Because SR is missing the important detail of who those people know. It's not about skill or what you know.

It's about who you know.