How Do You Handle Buyers Who Don't........

[tlvoiceover]

Hi Guys, currently I'm at a new seller level for Voiceover Work and I've been running into buyers who don't purchase the required commercial rights, or they change their script expecting it to be part of their 1 free revision. Since I'm a new seller I let those things slide because I'm afraid they might cancel the order if I ask them to pay additional fees for these extras. What has your experience been like when things like this come up? Do you enforce it or let it go?

[smashradio]

2 hours ago, tlvoiceover said:

Hi Guys, currently I'm at a new seller level for Voiceover Work and I've been running into buyers who don't purchase the required commercial rights, or they change their script expecting it to be part of their 1 free revision. Since I'm a new seller I let those things slide because I'm afraid they might cancel the order if I ask them to pay additional fees for these extras. What has your experience been like when things like this come up? Do you enforce it or let it go?

Back on topic: 

I've experienced this a lot. I send them a reminder about the commercial rights. I remind them that not having the rights opens them up to legal proceedings (and that I do follow up on clients who are violating copyright laws by using my voice without the required rights. 

I still deliver the voice. But I keep track of clients who don't pay, and if I ever see usage that's not within the rights, that helps my lawyer put food on the table. In many cases I've lost money following up on rights, but since it's not an empty threat, buyers will quickly learn that it's not a good idea to skip the rights. 

You shouldn't let it slide. It's your living. Your profession. You wouldn't accept that people don't pay your asking price if you were running a shop, or some other business, so why should you do so here on Fiverr? Because you're new? 

[newsmike]

1 hour ago, tlvoiceover said:

afraid they might cancel the order if I ask them to pay additional fees for these extras

You need to not be afraid to charge fair prices for what you offer. You will be taken advantage of otherwise. 

[newsmike]

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

I've yet to see someone wanting a voice over to then never use it publicly,

Should I have charged commercial rights for the eulogy I recorded for a child's funeral?  You admit that you don't know anything about the sublect, and then offer a silly opinion anyway. Stick to things you do understand, that keeps you from appearing foolish. 

[newsmike]

3 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

They are a minority.

Yes they are, but your suggestion about adding them in every order makes no sense. Should they have paid commercial rights for that? When you say "There, problem solved." is dismissive, misguided and a little arrogant. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by newsmike

[smashradio]

2 hours ago, visualstudios said:

I don't really understand the whole commercial rights deal with voice over artists, always looks to me like a bait and switch. Why don't they all price their service including the rights by default? There, problem solved. I've yet to see someone wanting a voice over to then never use it publicly, so rights are a necessity 99% of the time. May as well just include that in the base price and avoid that situation.

Apparantly, you know little about the voice over industry. 

I do tons of non-commercial work. But if you're going to be making money with my voice, you're going to have to pay me more. Simple as that. 

The voice over industry is set up around usage, rather than the time it takes to record the voice-over. 

But yes, more often than not, rights are a necessity. But the rights might be for different things. When I'm doing voice-overs for large, multinational corporations with billions of dollars in revenue, should they pay the same for my voice as some dude who just wants a funny voice for his answering machine? 

I think not. 

The corporation will probably gain a tremendous value from my voice, compared to the answering-machine-guy. 

Having separated rights makes it easier to charge according to the use and reach of the audio. 

 

[visualstudios]

2 minutes ago, smashradio said:

I do tons of non-commercial work. But if you're going to be making money with my voice, you're going to have to pay me more. Simple as that. 

So it makes no sense to charge a flat commercial rights fee. I charge my clients according to their size, as in the potential revenue they can make with my service. It's pricing for value. A flat commercial rights fee doesn't address that, you'll charge the same fee to a small operation or a Fortune 500 company. What.

Edited August 27, 2021 by visualstudios

[newsmike]

1 minute ago, visualstudios said:

So, a voice over for a Fortune 500 company must cost more than a voice over for a mom and pop shop. That is what makes sense.

Wrong. The VO is the same price for either. The usage rights can vary by thousands of dollars. You do not know what you are talking about. 

[newsmike]

2 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Well, the extra for "commercial rights" has a fixed price. I suppose that can be a limitation on Fiverr, I also run into that with gig prices. But all voice over artists I've ordered from, I just order the extra for commercial rights without even needing to discuss the project, so there's no price elasticity in my experience.

Fiverr is a bit more restrictive in that regard. For me Fiverr is maybe 10% of my VO business. In the real world, You can record a 30 second VO for a Mom & Pop store and charge $200 for the VO with commercial rights. That same script for a chain on national TV can be $200 for the VO,and thousands on usage rights. Plus renewals every year they continue to use it. I have one spot that keeps earning 6 years now.  

[smashradio]

4 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Ok, let me rephrase. Commercial rights should be included by default, since it's the most common. Give a discount to personal projects if you wish. I only see this with voice overs. I don't see logo designers charging commercial rights for a company logo vs a personal logo. A logo is a logo, a recorded voice is a recorded voice. The work is the same. 

If anything, it makes sense to charge more the more the client will make from it. So, a voice over for a Fortune 500 company must cost more than a voice over for a mom and pop shop. That is what makes sense. But no - commercial rights on gigs are always a flat fee. Makes no sense. Should be proportional to results.

Are you surprised to see different pricing models in different industries? Really? 

When I pay a lawyer, I pay per hour. When I pay for my Red Bull, I pay per can. When I pay a voice-over artist, I pay for the value that voice will bring me. 

It's not dissimilar to the other industries that involves acting: actors get paid according to viewership on TV (and can demand more if the show is popular). Movie actors can sign contracts for a part of the proceedings from ticket sales if the movie goes well. 

Pricing is different in different industries. I think the voice over talents like myself know best what works in our industry. I get that you don't understand it. 

9 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

So it makes no sense to charge a flat commercial rights fee. I charge my clients according to their size, as in the potential revenue they can make with my service. It's pricing for value. A flat commercial rights fee doesn't address that, you'll charge the same fee to a small operation or a Fortune 500 company. What.

Wow, so you charge MORE based on the value they are getting? Yet you don't understand why we charge commercial rights? It's not a "flat fee". It's different rights packages priced differently according to the buyers needs. 

Broadcast rights involves more rights for the buyer, but usually costs more. Bigger clients tend to go for that one. 

[smashradio]

1 minute ago, newsmike said:

Fiverr is a bit more restrictive in that regard. For me Fiverr is maybe 10% of my VO business. In the real world, You can record a 30 second VO for a Mom & Pop store and charge $200 for the VO with commercial rights. That same script for a chain on national TV can be $200 for the VO,and thousands on usage rights. Plus renewals every year they continue to use it. I have one spot that keeps earning 6 years now.  

I rarerly get TVCs here on Fiverr. It happens, but those are mostly coming from agencies. 

Those rights can be your bread and butter. The recording fee itself is a tiny fraction of it. 

[newsmike]

2 minutes ago, smashradio said:

Those rights can be your bread and butter. The recording fee itself is a tiny fraction of it. 

The VO is the loss leader, the usage is where its at. $$$

[smashradio]

3 minutes ago, newsmike said:

The VO is the loss leader, the usage is where its at. $$$

 

4 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

I understand pricing for value. Yet in my experience (and I've ordered quite a few v/o) none of them do it. They all charge a flat fee for the rights, regardless of the project. That's what doesn't make sense. If that's the idea, may as well just include that flat fee in the basic price. The only differences I've seen were in terms of the extension of the rights (commercial, broadcast, etc.). That doesn't address the project size or revenue potential, just means of distribution, and those mean nothing. You can get a small client wanting a tv ad, and a big client wanting a video for their website. The first one will have to pay more rights for broadcast than the second, since commercial rights are usually cheaper.

I see that it might appear like that. But if you're buying a voice-over from me, for use with one of your clients, and they are going to use that for paid marketing (high reach) or on TV, you're going to get the broadcast rights, not the commercial rights. Those cost more. 

If your client only needs a video for their own website, they probably only need the commercial right. 

But you're right: the rights system on Fiverr isn't perfect. But it's simple for the buyer. And most orders on Fiverr tend to come from small to medium size buyers who rarely need stuff like national TV coverage. 

I've seen voice over actors who charge as a custom extra for that type of thing, so there are ways around it. 

[visualstudios]

5 minutes ago, smashradio said:

I see that it might appear like that. But if you're buying a voice-over from me, for use with one of your clients, and they are going to use that for paid marketing (high reach) or on TV, you're going to get the broadcast rights, not the commercial rights. Those cost more. 

If your client only needs a video for their own website, they probably only need the commercial right. 

Precisely. That doesn't make sense. I can get a client that runs a tv ad that will make him 10k in revenue, and they pay broadcast rights. Then a client that will make 1 million with the video on their website, and they'll pay less since they only need commercial rights. Means of distribution are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is ROI. TV is not inherently more valuable than a website, or than a personal project for that matter. It's about value. And value/roi doesn't even have to be monetary. I can do a non commercial project that has extremely high value for the client. Shouldn't they pay more? According to the "rights" structure, they don't need to pay any, since it's not commercial. Hm.

Edited August 27, 2021 by visualstudios

[moikchap]

2 hours ago, tlvoiceover said:

Hi Guys, currently I'm at a new seller level for Voiceover Work and I've been running into buyers who don't purchase the required commercial rights, or they change their script expecting it to be part of their 1 free revision. Since I'm a new seller I let those things slide because I'm afraid they might cancel the order if I ask them to pay additional fees for these extras. What has your experience been like when things like this come up? Do you enforce it or let it go?

I think, the best thing to do, might be to ask them if the project is for personal use, almost conversationally. And if they confirm it's not personal, maybe pull out something like "Oh! Yeah, it happens sometimes that Fiverr doesn't really put it prominent enough in the order flow, but there's a Commercial Use add-on to claim the rights. Just to make sure there's no grey area about ownership, could you tag that one on so that the on-site copy of the agreement has it under your name instead of mine?" Like, you're not accusing, it's not their fault, but it is a thing that needs to be done, and now they know.

[smashradio]

Just now, visualstudios said:

Precisely. That doesn't make sense. I can get a client that runs a tv ad that will make him 10k in revenue, and they pay broadcast rights. Then a client that will make 1 million with the video on their website, and they'll pay less since they only need commercial rights. Means of distribution are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is ROI.

In an ideal world, that's true. And for most platforms, that would make sense. I charge way more for a voice-over from an agency than I do on Fiverr. But then again, those jobs require me to audition, maybe do remote connections, and sit through meetings etc. That's time, and time is money. On Fiverr, I can deliver 5 gigs in the time it takes me to deliver one agency gig. So naturally, I can charge less. 

If buyers had to watch out for all the contracts, union stuff, agency fees, studio fees and usage fee agreements with royalties and so on, Fiverr just wouldn't work like... well.. Fiverr. It would function more like a high-end studio. 

The marketplace on Fiverr is geared towards a different group of clients. Sure, you can get some big jobs on here (I've done multiple TVCs and even animated full length movies on Fiverr!) but for what it's worth: it does work fairly well. It's well established as a system for charging extra when the reach is wider. 

If you wanted to, you could set up your own gig extras for all those things, make it really complicated, and Mr. Plumber would just move on to the next gig. 

[visualstudios]

I just find it odd that it only applies to v/o, while basically every creative industry could well charge for rights. Yet I only see v/o artists doing it. I don't see how what they do is different from a logo designer, copywriter, etc.

I find it much more elegant to just forget rights altogether and price each project individually according to the client.

Edited August 27, 2021 by visualstudios

[newsmike]

The indusrty is set up this way. Here for example is the AFTRA rate sheet. 

2019 All Commercial Rate Sheets 7.1.19.pdf

[visualstudios]

But Fiverr is not the industry. The film industry had a bunch of rules, syndicates, unions, etc. None of that applies to Fiverr. Fiverr is its own industry.

[newsmike]

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

But Fiverr is not the industry. The film industry had a bunch of rules, syndicates, unions, etc. None of that applies to Fiverr. Fiverr is its own industry.

What is it with you demanding to regulate how VO sellers do business? We aren't trying to set prices for people who draw logos. Do your thing, we'll do ours. Fiverr is not its own industry. It is a conglomerate of independent sellers, who set their own prices, term and rules. Right? 

Edited August 28, 2021 by newsmike

[visualstudios]

I'm not demanding to regulate anything. My opinions are not binding anyway, and regardless, I fully support free markets. I can still have my opinions on things though. I can see a free market working and not agree with how it works. That doesn't mean I want to regulate it. People are free to do whatever they want, I'm free to disagree and say so. It's all good. Voice over artists are generally not a problem in my view anyway, this "rights" thing is a minor point. They do provide an honest and useful service. 

There are certain... categories of services, let's say, that I do think have no place on Fiverr, because they are a scam by definition. Still, not demanding they get all banned (even though they really should).

Edited August 28, 2021 by visualstudios

[stardustsounds]

I started to include it in my requirements to ask which one they included. If it wasn't included in the actual order I send an offer or a request to modify order showing what is needed based on which one they chose there. Obviously custom orders can be made to not include them, like the childs eulogy or something similar, but the buyer should reach out to the seller to make that custom order instead of just assuming.

If I get ignored once reaching out I then reach out to fiverr support and so far they have been very helpful. They've cancelled two of my orders without it showing on my stats. Today though might be a bit different because the order is due in about 2 hours and neither has gotten back to me yet so we shall see. 

Also the reason most VO artist don't include the rights in there order is 1-there are different rights for different projects. 2-I'm a newly level 1 seller. If I change my prices from starting at 5 to say 10 or 15 I'm going to get a lot less traffic. Buyers need to be more diligent when making their orders and if they do have questions regarding it need to reach out for clarification. I do wish Fiverr required buyers to choose either commercial or full broadcast for each order. It would save so much headache for so many. 

[visualstudios]

I don't really understand the whole commercial rights deal with voice over artists, always looks to me like a bait and switch. Why don't they all price their service including the rights by default? There, problem solved. I've yet to see someone wanting a voice over to then never use it publicly, so rights are a necessity 99% of the time. May as well just include that in the base price and avoid that situation.

[visualstudios]

13 minutes ago, newsmike said:

Should I have charged commercial rights for the eulogy I recorded for a child's funeral?  You admit that you don't know anything about the sublect, and then offer a silly opinion anyway. Stick to things you do understand, that keeps you from appearing foolish. 

Please let me know the % of your work that is eulogies and the like. You are way out of line with that aggressiveness. Sure, there are cases of people ordering voice overs with non commercial purposes. They are a minority.

[visualstudios]

Ok, let me rephrase. Commercial rights should be included by default, since it's the most common. Give a discount to personal projects if you wish. I only see this with voice overs. I don't see logo designers charging commercial rights for a company logo vs a personal logo. A logo is a logo, a recorded voice is a recorded voice. The work is the same. 

If anything, it makes sense to charge more the more the client will make from it. So, a voice over for a Fortune 500 company must cost more than a voice over for a mom and pop shop. That is what makes sense. But no - commercial rights on gigs are always a flat fee. Makes no sense. Should be proportional to results.

[visualstudios]

Well, the extra for "commercial rights" has a fixed price. I suppose that can be a limitation on Fiverr, I also run into that with gig prices. But all voice over artists I've ordered from, I just order the extra for commercial rights without even needing to discuss the project, so there's no price elasticity in my experience.

This is your pricing for rights. Is this not accurate and can vary wildly?

Edited August 27, 2021 by visualstudios