Learn to say NO – Detect the red flags

[filipdevaere]

Today I had the kind of "buyer" you better not do business with. I'm going to post this here as an example for all new sellers and those desperate for an order. My message is: LEARN TO SAY NO.

 

 

 

Some buyers have no respect for sellers. 4 hours ago I was contacted by one of those buyers in my inbox. The alarm bells went off very quickly.

So far, nothing seems wrong. It's a normal conversation. “Green flag”

He is asking for the price. 
For me, this is immediately an "orange flag" (not yet a "red" flag). Why? Well, this is a simple gig where I offer translation work. Nothing fancy, very simple and all prices are clearly stated. Why is he asking the price then?

So I count the number of words in his English manual. A little less than 1500 words, so this becomes the price of the basic package $60 for up to 1500 words. 

And there it is. I was right. A huge “red flag” appears.

So this guy immediately asks for a 50% discount. This is a new buyer for me. I have never made a cent from him and yet he immediately tries to cut the price in half.
Fiverr wants you to bring in new buyers. Fiverr also rewards you more when a new buyer is satisfied and leaves a good review. Is this worth it? Not for me. This is simply showing no respect for the seller.
This is how these types of buyers operate with new sellers or sellers who are desperately looking for an order. I do not play this game.

If you give in and give the discount, chances are he'll come back and want another discount next time. Or he'll tell one of his friends and then you have a chance that they'll come to you too.
My advice is to dare to say NO. Just refuse.
And then he tries again:

At this point, you have to stick to your guns. He doesn't have his discount, so if you agree you now have the chance that he will post a bad review because he didn't get his discount.
And then he tries again because his project has to be done.

Here he agrees to the price. Again, you can't give in.
He doesn't have his discount and now says he's paying the full price. So if you agree, you still have the chance that he'll post a bad review because he didn't get any discount.
Another trick these types of buyers try is to play on your emotions/feelings.

What he says is true. I am the only one offering this service on Fiverr. Hearing something like that is nice, the temptation becomes great to give in and accept the project. But again, there's still a chance that he'll leave a bad review because he didn't get a discount.

So I refuse and also tell him why I'm not going to help him.
The conversation then switched to Dutch because he suddenly realized that I also speak Dutch.
In the rest of the short conversation, he also said "If your work is good then I will give you a nice 5 stars". That became the second "red flag" and also the moment to end that conversation before the Fiverr AI intervened.

I hope I have taught some sellers something. Learn to say no. If the buyer doesn’t show you respect, don’t work for him. Be proud, don’t give in, and keep your dignity. This is not the kind of buyer you want to work with. The risk is too great.
 

[wordpresssp]

17 minutes ago, filipdevaere said:

there's still a chance that he'll leave a bad review because he didn't get a discount.

Maybe try to cancel the order at the end too, even CS can review this case but it's still a headache. 

[mandyzines]

Great post, Filip! 

I think there's a good chance he wouldn't have seen your service as a "value for the money" and you would've taken a hit in the reviews anyway even if you did agree to his initial price.

I too turn them away and offer instructions on how to find a freelancer within their budget, because that compatibility is of utmost importance on this website.

Me turning them away probably has a greater impact on how many new buyers Fiverr brings to me from that point forward then it does you, though. It's a double-edged sword.

 

[uk1000]

For the first part I agree it's best to say no if they're offering much too low compared to your prices (and if it's something that would take a long time to do).

I'm not sure about the last part. It might be best checking with Fiverr/CS or someone in case they might have a problem with sellers refusing to do the work once the buyer then agreed to the full gig price, and saying to the buyer that there's a too high a risk they'd leave bad feedback (or a bad review).

I agree there probably is a higher risk of it. Though if they did you could write in the public reply what happened.

Edited September 3, 2024 by uk1000

[filipdevaere]

10 minutes ago, uk1000 said:

For the first part I agree it's best to say no if they're offering much too low compared to your prices (and if it's something that would take a long time to do).

I'm not sure about the last part. It might be best checking with Fiverr/CS or someone in case they might have a problem with sellers refusing to do the work once the buyer then agreed to full price, and saying to the buyer that there's a too high a risk they'd leave bad feedback (or a bad review).

I agree there probably is a higher risk of it. Though if they did you could write in the public reply what happened.

I don't think Fiverr can force me to work with a buyer that I choose not to work with. We as sellers do not have a contract with Fiverr. We use the Fiverr website and pay for it (20% of our income). I have every right to refuse a buyer or even cancel an order. Of course, if an order is cancelled, you have to bear the consequences.
Next time, it might be better not to mention that there is too much risk of bad feedback.

[andywarburton]

Nicely done.... although I would have hit the block button after the first "no" 😉

[thejamuhh]

1 hour ago, filipdevaere said:

If the buyer doesn’t show you respect, don’t work for him.

Great advice! 

Keeping your self respect and protecting your profile is something you should put above earing a few bucks.

 

Great that you stayed with your answer of no, even after he agreed on the normal price. We all know the high risk (and more the effect) of a bad review. Yes you could reply with what happend, but still, it's a bad review based on something you can't do anything about and it will have an effect in some way.

But if my knowledge is correct, FIverr rates your gig lower if you don't get a sale out of a conversation (right?) So with this story as an example, I think Fiverr should not calculate this as a way to rate our profiles. But then again, I have alot against the sneaky measurements 😉 

Would love to see more interesting chat conversations on this Forum, could be fun to see what everyone has to deal with 😂

[uk1000]

2 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

What he says is true. I am the only one offering this service on Fiverr

So he wanted a (technical) user manual that was in English converted into Dutch.

There's a gig called:

Quote

I will manually translate any document from english to dutch

where the description says:

Quote

Areas of expertise:

 

• Books & Novels
• Academic papers
• Amazon product description
• Technology
• Technical Manuals

 

FAQ says:

Quote

What types of documents can you translate?

I can translate a wide range of documents, including legal documents, business reports, marketing materials, technical manuals, academic papers, and more.

so if one of those gigs could have been okay for the potential buyer maybe you could have linked to that gig or linked to a Fiverr search for those.

Edited September 3, 2024 by uk1000

[markp]

With people like this, the first step is to say no without tanking your success score and subtly telling them why you are saying no.

Thank you for reaching out and considering my services. I  value the opportunity to work with clients who appreciate the time, effort, and expertise that go into delivering quality work at what is already below market cost. Based on our initial conversation, this project might not be the best fit for us.I appreciate your understanding and wish you the best with your project.

He's telling you that no one else can provide the service but is asking for a reduced price. Someone hasn't heard of supply and demand. He will probably get a service from an "expert" using Google Translate and, after 787 revision requests, will ask for a refund.

 

 

[visualstudios]

4 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

I hope I have taught some sellers something. Learn to say no. If the buyer doesn’t show you respect, don’t work for him. Be proud, don’t give in, and keep your dignity. This is not the kind of buyer you want to work with. The risk is too great.

What you wrote is all true, but it's very unfortunate that it has to be this way. The way the system works and is set up on Fiverr forces sellers to always be on the backfoot, and harms our negotiation ability greatly. On Fiverr, I also do that (although I try to be much less obvious about the real reasons when facing the client).

If I'm dealing with clients directly, outside a platform, I'll take a client like that any day - because I will get paid my rate, and that's it. On Fiverr, since they can harm me greatly with a bad review, I always have to have the attitude of "everything is perfect and the buyer is thrilled with ordering, or I need to refuse him at any cost", which is very limiting for business. 

In real life I've had fights with clients, almost to the point of insults, and got deals made and made good money, and the clients got what they needed, even if they weren't able to get the "amazing deal" they were looking for, they got the deal they needed, at the end of the day. On Fiverr? Forget about it. It's not enough to get the buyer to buy, the buyer must be thrilled with the opportunity, or else

Edited September 3, 2024 by visualstudios

[visualstudios]

2 hours ago, thejamuhh said:

But if my knowledge is correct, FIverr rates your gig lower if you don't get a sale out of a conversation (right?)

Certainly hope not, and doesn't seem to be the case. All my gigs have a 10 success score, and I turn down clients left and right.

[visualstudios]

2 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

I don't think Fiverr can force me to work with a buyer that I choose not to work with. We as sellers do not have a contract with Fiverr

They can't force you to work with anyone, but they can punish you (SS, lower visibility, etc.) for any reason they can think of, pretty much, and there's nothing you can do. It's a minefield.

[mandyzines]

38 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Certainly hope not, and doesn't seem to be the case. All my gigs have a 10 success score, and I turn down clients left and right.

The conversion rate has to be a mine of sorts, in regards to what does and does not happen within inboxes. Everything else is AI-d. 

[filipdevaere]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:56 PM, uk1000 said:

So he wanted a (technical) user manual that was in English converted into Dutch.

There's a gig called:

where the description says:

FAQ says:

so if one of those gigs could have been okay for the potential buyer maybe you could have linked to that gig or linked to a Fiverr search for those.

Well,

Now you should take a good look at the profile of this seller.

 His knowledge of the languages he mentions is enough to conclude that this profile is made up.

 Someone from Pakistan who marks Dutch as native/bilingual probably has yet to be born. And if that were the case, that person would certainly not return from the Netherlands or Flanders (Belgium) to Pakistan.

You can also see that he is fluent in 3 other languages, which again shows that his knowledge of languages is greatly exaggerated. He also tells us that he is a German translator. He does not even put his mother tongue on the list. Why? Because he is not going to receive orders in his mother tongue. He knows this too well and that is why he fills the language list with languages that are somewhat more popular. Dutch is a less popular language and you cannot easily learn it abroad and certainly not in Pakistan.

 

And then we have his school.

Quote

This is not the kind of school where you can learn Western languages. Also note the text "Located next to a landfill".

In the video he posts on that particular gig, he reads a Dutch text. As a Dutchman, this is unintelligible without the written text that appears at the bottom of the screen. Not a single word is pronounced correctly. He is just trying to imitate the speech and completely misses the mark. That guy doesn't speak Dutch.

 

In his gig, you can see what he can translate.

This is just a list of as many areas of expertise as possible with the hope that someone is stupid enough to order that gig.

This is one of the many Fiverr profiles with fake information, purely built to lure innocent buyers.

 Someone from the Netherlands who sees this video and sees that the seller states “Dutch Native/bilingual” will never order this gig. 

[filipdevaere]

8 hours ago, thejamuhh said:

Would love to see more interesting chat conversations on this Forum, could be fun to see what everyone has to deal with 😂

Indeed.

I don't normally talk to these buyers for that long. I don't know why I talked to this one for a bit longer.

[filipdevaere]

@thejamuhh Can you have a look at the video from this gig that @uk1000 found? Manually translate any document from english to dutch by Malikwaqar904 | Fiverr 

I know that you speak Dutch. Do you think that the guy in the video speaks Fluent Dutch? Is it possible to understand him without reading the Dutch texts beneath the screen? I even think that this is not a human voice.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by filipdevaere

[michmikaia]

30 minutes ago, filipdevaere said:

I even think that this is not a human voice.

Exactly it's like an AI voice.

Edited September 4, 2024 by michmikaia

[desmond_aubery]

11 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

Today I had the kind of "buyer" you better not do business with. I'm going to post this here as an example for all new sellers and those desperate for an order. My message is: LEARN TO SAY NO.

 

 

 

Some buyers have no respect for sellers. 4 hours ago I was contacted by one of those buyers in my inbox. The alarm bells went off very quickly.

So far, nothing seems wrong. It's a normal conversation. “Green flag”

He is asking for the price. 
For me, this is immediately an "orange flag" (not yet a "red" flag). Why? Well, this is a simple gig where I offer translation work. Nothing fancy, very simple and all prices are clearly stated. Why is he asking the price then?

So I count the number of words in his English manual. A little less than 1500 words, so this becomes the price of the basic package $60 for up to 1500 words. 

And there it is. I was right. A huge “red flag” appears.

So this guy immediately asks for a 50% discount. This is a new buyer for me. I have never made a cent from him and yet he immediately tries to cut the price in half.
Fiverr wants you to bring in new buyers. Fiverr also rewards you more when a new buyer is satisfied and leaves a good review. Is this worth it? Not for me. This is simply showing no respect for the seller.
This is how these types of buyers operate with new sellers or sellers who are desperately looking for an order. I do not play this game.

If you give in and give the discount, chances are he'll come back and want another discount next time. Or he'll tell one of his friends and then you have a chance that they'll come to you too.
My advice is to dare to say NO. Just refuse.
And then he tries again:

At this point, you have to stick to your guns. He doesn't have his discount, so if you agree you now have the chance that he will post a bad review because he didn't get his discount.
And then he tries again because his project has to be done.

Here he agrees to the price. Again, you can't give in.
He doesn't have his discount and now says he's paying the full price. So if you agree, you still have the chance that he'll post a bad review because he didn't get any discount.
Another trick these types of buyers try is to play on your emotions/feelings.

What he says is true. I am the only one offering this service on Fiverr. Hearing something like that is nice, the temptation becomes great to give in and accept the project. But again, there's still a chance that he'll leave a bad review because he didn't get a discount.

So I refuse and also tell him why I'm not going to help him.
The conversation then switched to Dutch because he suddenly realized that I also speak Dutch.
In the rest of the short conversation, he also said "If your work is good then I will give you a nice 5 stars". That became the second "red flag" and also the moment to end that conversation before the Fiverr AI intervened.

I hope I have taught some sellers something. Learn to say no. If the buyer doesn’t show you respect, don’t work for him. Be proud, don’t give in, and keep your dignity. This is not the kind of buyer you want to work with. The risk is too great.
 

Thank you for a review of your client vetting process. Brilliant. I learned something today.

Your prices are entirely reasonable, and should not be the subject of bargaining. 

[wpmasterseo1]

11 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

@thejamuhh Can you have a look at the video from this gig that @uk1000 found? Manually translate any document from english to dutch by Malikwaqar904 | Fiverr 

I know that you speak Dutch. Do you think that the guy in the video speaks Fluent Dutch? Is it possible to understand him without reading the Dutch texts beneath the screen? I even think that this is not a human voice.

 

 

and what if he changes his ID and then re-order from you at $60 at the same price?

[filipdevaere]

Just now, wpmasterseo1 said:

and what if he changes his ID and then re-order from you at $60 at the same price?

This cannot be avoided.

[rawque_gulia]

8 hours ago, wpmasterseo1 said:

and what if he changes his ID and then re-order from you at $60 at the same price?

Back in the early days, I was a total idiot for accepting such an offer. I gave the client an $80 quote (after discounting) and he still rejected it saying the budget was too high. Then 2-3 days later, another client asked for the same model -- and I quickly realized it was another employee from the same company. This time, I removed the discount and simply gave them the original price which was $150, thinking they’d just go away since even $80 wasn’t in their budget. 

But surprise! No negotiations -- they agreed to the original price ($150). At that time, I didn’t know @filipdevaere (haha), so my brain was still in development mode. I accepted the work (and was dancing as the deal was confirmed without any discounts) but that order turned out to be a nightmare. 

Even after 5 deliveries, the client remained unsatisfied, constantly requesting revisions until I had to say a firm "no". And the main problem was that they were coming to ask for a revision after 3 days and that too just before 2-3 hours of auto order completion. They then tried to lure me with promises of "lots of future projects", but I made it clear the project was done and this was the last message on the order page:

I was literally lucky that after this delivery, the client just went offline and never came back. They were new to the platform, so maybe they weren’t aware of the review process (not sure), but they never came back to leave a review or mark the order as complete. The order got marked as complete after 3 days, and all was good! But now, I am never going to take another bet on such projects where the client’s budget is lower -- because then they will try to squeeze every drop of blood out of you.

[visualstudios]

9 hours ago, filipdevaere said:

This cannot be avoided.

It can be avoided by having request to order. I avoid a ton of problems with that alone. Any suspicion I may have, I immediately send the buyer to a video call. Very hard to fake that.

[filipdevaere]

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

It can be avoided by having request to order.

I have request to order and it is activated on all my gigs.

The buyer can contact me with another account and try to buy it for the price of $60. I have customers requesting the same translation because they sell the same products. I am going to have to decline the order for anyone who wants the same manual translated.

[wpmasterseo1]

4 hours ago, rawque_gulia said:

Back in the early days, I was a total idiot for accepting such an offer. I gave the client an $80 quote (after discounting) and he still rejected it saying the budget was too high. Then 2-3 days later, another client asked for the same model -- and I quickly realized it was another employee from the same company. This time, I removed the discount and simply gave them the original price which was $150, thinking they’d just go away since even $80 wasn’t in their budget. 

But surprise! No negotiations -- they agreed to the original price ($150). At that time, I didn’t know @filipdevaere (haha), so my brain was still in development mode. I accepted the work (and was dancing as the deal was confirmed without any discounts) but that order turned out to be a nightmare. 

Even after 5 deliveries, the client remained unsatisfied, constantly requesting revisions until I had to say a firm "no". And the main problem was that they were coming to ask for a revision after 3 days and that too just before 2-3 hours of auto order completion. They then tried to lure me with promises of "lots of future projects", but I made it clear the project was done and this was the last message on the order page:

I was literally lucky that after this delivery, the client just went offline and never came back. They were new to the platform, so maybe they weren’t aware of the review process (not sure), but they never came back to leave a review or mark the order as complete. The order got marked as complete after 3 days, and all was good! But now, I am never going to take another bet on such projects where the client’s budget is lower -- because then they will try to squeeze every drop of blood out of you.

oh then you are lucky so it will auto accepted then "Revision after 3 days and that too just before 2-3 hours" so it will also causing the late (delay) of your payment clearing.

[thejamuhh]

Just now, filipdevaere said:

I know that you speak Dutch. Do you think that the guy in the video speaks Fluent Dutch?

I only (slightly) understand what he is saying if I read the subtitles, and the voice sounds like the animated Tiktok voice over. 

This guy can't speak or understand a single word of proper Dutch. What a shame to see.