How do you deal with unexperienced-over-reactive customer (webdesign) ?

[stephanedr]

Hello everyone,

I created this topic to relate a canceled order I wasn't ready to deal with and maybe find keys some of you might have.
I'm a 12 years exp. graphic designer now and I never had to deal with really young buyers.

The order was about a young man, not so young also, he had 19 yo. He wanted me to design his web development's agency (?) website UI.
He started by saying he tried to work with few others designer and all were "bad" but seing my work I might be the one. Showing few inspirational UI he looks like knowing what he wants.
From here i'm like "ok, warning he is really young but he is still a customer and looks to know where he want to go", fine let's go.
I send him a custom offer wich he accepts.

Order begins.

He starts by saying, "i'm not in a hurry, let's do it the easy and smooth way, work without pressure, let's ignore the deadline fiverr thing, I can pay if needed."
Perfect, I don't care about not asking to pay for extra time, if needed, revisions will be my stop. I like designing website, I didn't make one for a long time now.
I look at the chat and see him still typing, "can you let me know every step you do, to be effecient ? thanks", "ok fine I'll design a piece of the home page to be sure we are on the same wavelength, then do the whole things and then the others pages". He says "ok, i'm so excited, see you soon".

The day after, 8am "Hey, you good today ?", "I'm fine thanks, I've something almost ready for you". He continued to tipe common things... 

I'm inspired, work kinda more than I should and deliver the whole page.

He takes like 5 min to look at it, and says "WOOW I love it so much, there a small things im not a big fan of (a photo) but the whole thing is really cool.
Be sure we are going to work together again" etc...

and later the same hour and literally SPAM messages like "hey I like this part but what do you think about it ? shouldnt it be bigger or smaller ?", I argue about my choices, he responds "ok you are right, can you just change the photo and I think we good ?"

and I keep getting messages over, and over "I looked at an another website, can you do the same on this part ?", "can you make our logo bigger and put it elsewhere ?" and many more, I knew where this was going, but I had time, let's find out.

The next day, new message "How are you today ?" "do you think I'm getting something this morning ?", "yup, I made the few changes, here it is !"

I noted on a bloc note, every points he wanted to fix (the information was completly overwhelmed by all his messages), and.. fixed them.

He replied by many encouraging messages, like "well done on this part I didnt think about this" "nice color there it's perfect !". 10 messages later, he is asking what I think about it ? what are the common use ? I argued again, he was ok etc. and If I remember correctly his last message was "I think the whole design is too cold, not deep enough need to be more dynamic".

Everytime I was doing one step forward and ten backward.

9pm "do you think you can give me something tonight ?" "No, you ask for a lot of fixes, I thought you were not in a hurry,  lemme be focused on your thing" "ok ok"

I delivered a flatened pdf with commentary to argue EVERY changes I did and I was even glad to find a really good design for what he asked... even if I turned to hate this project.

"why did you changed everything ?", "everything was perfect, let's go back to what we had" +5 messages...
I told him (I had to) "this was your last revision, you need to pay for the next ones".

"I wan't a response in the next hour..." he asked 

This was to much, I tried to go as far as I could, but this...
I told him this was disrespectful and asked for a cancel.
He apologized, saying he is kinda irritable, his mother is sick etc, "let's get back to work together, I'll pay if needed etc etc".

"X accepted the cancel".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What am I supposed to do in that case ? what do you guys do ? about people who insists this much ? the 2nd day I knew by experience where this was going but I think I kinda accepted it to not lose fiverr stats and I think I could have get some extra money...

Hopefully, revisions limit kinda helped me on this one.

I think he was still pationate by his thing and wanted to do it right, and pay at the end. But this young dude didn't know at all where he wanted to go, asking "please do something that is complete dope" causing the whole project to be just a mess, it was a red flag.

A new designer would completly lose confidence after project like this.
It's not bad to say stop, protect yourself.

Edited May 30 by stephanedr

[stephanedr]

This is a really stressful situation indeed, but I'm sure I could have set limits and also guided him in the whole process.
What I hate on the other hand is that we both lost hours/days.

[sunboatrecords]

1 hour ago, stephanedr said:

He started by saying he tried to work with few others designer and all were "bad" but seing my work I might be the one.

Stephane, this was the red flag that you missed. He didn't say that he browsed other portfolios and thought that you are the man for the job. He said that he tried to work with them. And notice the plural.

 

As for the rest, Fiverr is governed by a strict algorithm. When the AI detects two million revisions and on top of that a cancellation, make no mistake that this will hurt your success score.

I understand that you are trying to build your reviews and take on projects that perhaps, you wouldn't under other circumstances but, the long term consequences are not worth it.

 

A Fiverr order should be like this:

- You receive the full requirements. Ideally, even before the order is placed.

-  You deliver.

 

"Collaborating" with amateurs isn't worth our time, and it is dangerous for our success score. Also, the endless back and forth is detrimental to the resources of your business. Namely, your time and well-being.

 

Just a few thoughts from my experience.

 

Warm regards,

Spyros.

 

PS. Get in seller plus premium if you can. "Request to order" is your friend.

Edited May 30 by sunboatrecords

[nazmulhuq1989]

53 minutes ago, stephanedr said:

This is a really stressful situation indeed, but I'm sure I could have set limits and also guided him in the whole process.
What I hate on the other hand is that we both lost hours/days.

I totally agree with you. But what's done is done. Now, I think it's better to be careful with the next projects. It's great if clients have a vision for their project so we can make it come true. But if they are not sure, they should let the seller take charge of the project and wait for the final result within the set time. The seller should justify the final vision. Afterward, with some minor changes if needed, this way the process should be smooth for both sides.

Edited May 30 by nazmulhuq1989

[dponzio]

I am sorry for what happened to you. I don't see this as a matter of age, erratic personalities and know-it-alls come from all ages. I step back as soon as I detect such red flags. Life is too short for dealing with them, no matter how much money is involved.

On the opposite, between yesterday and today I worked with a very nice, young client on another platform. The good thing about him is that he is aware that he has limitations in an urgent situation with an important client, and hired a professional to help him out. He is very smart in his job, but is also aware that he might need help in some areas, is happy to pay for that and is appreciative and polite. 

In my experience, I came to learn to focus on attitudes and behaviours, not age, nationalities or similar. 

[imagination7413]

As soon as there a hint of "I'd like to change X" I would start replying with "I'd be happy to work with you further, those kinds of changes will cost X". Immediately let the Buyer know that change orders cost more. If you're willing to make an exception, be explicit and clearly state "I'm willing to do X and Y for no extra charge as a courtesy, but I'll need to charge for V, W, and Z, in the amounts of A, B, and C, respectively." This can include changes that you just don't like, such as when you had to explain yourself for the choices you made. If the client wants to insist on their product being worse, then it's still extra work for you. 

Even explaining takes time. In the beta-reader sector, there's something called a 'reader report' that we can charge extra for, if a writer want us to go do into deeper detail rather than a more casual overview. You can do something similar, should you ever encounter a situation like this again. "I'm happy you're interested in understanding the details of the choices I've made, a thorough report like that will take some time to type up, so I think $x is fair compensation for this extra work on your project." This signals that yes, it's more work on your part, that yes, there IS a reason for doing what you've done, not just 'I felt like it' which might cut down on the questions, as it shows that 'I know what I'm doing, please put some trust in me'. And if they still want the report, be it for lack of trust or plain curiosity, at least you'll be paid for it. 

You've been smart in posting it in your FAQ (I'm guessing I looked at the right gig) "What "revisions" means ? Revisions include modifications you would want on a given concept. New concepts are of course excluded" but you need to stand up to what you've said. 

[stephanedr]

Thanks everyone for reading this long post, Fiverr community is really great !

16 hours ago, sunboatrecords said:

Stephane, this was the red flag that you missed. He didn't say that he browsed other portfolios and thought that you are the man for the job. He said that he tried to work with them. And notice the plural.

 

As for the rest, Fiverr is governed by a strict algorithm. When the AI detects two million revisions and on top of that a cancellation, make no mistake that this will hurt your success score.

I understand that you are trying to build your reviews and take on projects that perhaps, you wouldn't under other circumstances but, the long term consequences are not worth it.

 

A Fiverr order should be like this:

- You receive the full requirements. Ideally, even before the order is placed.

-  You deliver.

 

"Collaborating" with amateurs isn't worth our time, and it is dangerous for our success score. Also, the endless back and forth is detrimental to the resources of your business. Namely, your time and well-being.

 

Just a few thoughts from my experience.

 

Warm regards,

Spyros.

 

PS. Get in seller plus premium if you can. "Request to order" is your friend.

Thanks for this constructive reply sunboat !

Yeah you are right, I think you pointed a crucial thing : you receive full requirement, ideally even before order is placed.
And deliver.

This is the way, collaborating might be possible after the order has reached some point or at least on a second order after that you consider the buyer is the kind of person who might acutally collaborate smoothly.

I should have done this.

regards,

 

16 hours ago, nazmulhuq1989 said:

I totally agree with you. But what's done is done. Now, I think it's better to be careful with the next projects. It's great if clients have a vision for their project so we can make it come true. But if they are not sure, they should let the seller take charge of the project and wait for the final result within the set time. The seller should justify the final vision. Afterward, with some minor changes if needed, this way the process should be smooth for both sides.

Exactly, I assume so, I'll take as usual, as an experience and treate this differently the next time.

 

16 hours ago, dponzio said:

I am sorry for what happened to you. I don't see this as a matter of age, erratic personalities and know-it-alls come from all ages. I step back as soon as I detect such red flags. Life is too short for dealing with them, no matter how much money is involved.

On the opposite, between yesterday and today I worked with a very nice, young client on another platform. The good thing about him is that he is aware that he has limitations in an urgent situation with an important client, and hired a professional to help him out. He is very smart in his job, but is also aware that he might need help in some areas, is happy to pay for that and is appreciative and polite. 

In my experience, I came to learn to focus on attitudes and behaviours, not age, nationalities or similar. 

Yup, you are totally right this isn't a matter of age.
However, I'm convinced that this boy would have collaborate differently with a bigger proffesionnal experience. But yeah, it's all about attitudes and behaviours.

15 hours ago, imagination7413 said:

As soon as there a hint of "I'd like to change X" I would start replying with "I'd be happy to work with you further, those kinds of changes will cost X". Immediately let the Buyer know that change orders cost more. If you're willing to make an exception, be explicit and clearly state "I'm willing to do X and Y for no extra charge as a courtesy, but I'll need to charge for V, W, and Z, in the amounts of A, B, and C, respectively." This can include changes that you just don't like, such as when you had to explain yourself for the choices you made. If the client wants to insist on their product being worse, then it's still extra work for you. 

Even explaining takes time. In the beta-reader sector, there's something called a 'reader report' that we can charge extra for, if a writer want us to go do into deeper detail rather than a more casual overview. You can do something similar, should you ever encounter a situation like this again. "I'm happy you're interested in understanding the details of the choices I've made, a thorough report like that will take some time to type up, so I think $x is fair compensation for this extra work on your project." This signals that yes, it's more work on your part, that yes, there IS a reason for doing what you've done, not just 'I felt like it' which might cut down on the questions, as it shows that 'I know what I'm doing, please put some trust in me'. And if they still want the report, be it for lack of trust or plain curiosity, at least you'll be paid for it. 

You've been smart in posting it in your FAQ (I'm guessing I looked at the right gig) "What "revisions" means ? Revisions include modifications you would want on a given concept. New concepts are of course excluded" but you need to stand up to what you've said. 

Thanks for this constructive reply Imagination ! 

Totally agree, that's one of my old little quirks. I try to do some things, wich I consider I can afford as a courtesy to create some kind of customer loyalty.
I taking note of this, since Fiverr prices for regular sellers are MIIILLESS away from the common prices from our independant slash agencies slash whatever counterparts. We should ask for a fair compensation for the effort we put into developping the idea slash products slash etc of the buyers.

As an exemple I use to put a word note into my deliveries folder, where I explain things, roughly most of the time but still... I guess I'm not supposed to.

Quote

You've been smart in posting it in your FAQ (I'm guessing I looked at the right gig) "What "revisions" means ? Revisions include modifications you would want on a given concept. New concepts are of course excluded" but you need to stand up to what you've said. 

Yup, you said it, stand for it.

Have a great day !