El-cheapo client - lesson learned this week...

[desmond_aubery]

Well, I learned a bitter lesson this week. Put it down to a 'newbie' seller experience.

• Accepted a new client for a low-cost Gig based on his being a 'poor young engineer' needing some assistance
• Client seemed to be reasonable, although I did notice a name-change from external web-presence
• Project was to supply a simple report for client to progress further
• We agreed a project specification in writing
• I created a special low-cost special Gig for said client
• Client accepted offer and placed order
• I produced a really nice report and delivered it against his agreed specification - lots of bells-and-whistles
• All of a sudden client began a campaign of massive 'scope creep' - essentially multiplying the initial project effort at least tenfold
• I advised that the scope additions could be offered as an extended offer
• He declined the offer
• He decided that the project provision was complete and signed off
• Client left he with a very nasty review which smashed my reputation on the Fiverr system, even though I outlined the client difficulties in my project feedback

So, the take-away value from this:

• Do not take low-price Gigs to 'help a client with a low budget'
• Fiverr's reputation system is loaded against a moral-centered supplier
• Clients use this distortion as a way to press for 'scope creep'
• Fiverr platform appears to not be the place to use for long-term business - at least not for the moment

I will now leave my Fiverr Gigs 'as is'. What comes from them comes. I'll proceed to promote my projects through direct sales and my new online shop presence (these actually take far less than Fiverr's 20% + earnings from extended 'clearance' period). Fiverr impressions contribution to my marketing efforts is abysmal, to say the least. Most of my clicks are driven from my business website, anyway.

The Fiverr journey has been an interesting one, to say the least.

 

Edited March 25 by desmond_aubery

[sunboatrecords]

I am sorry that you had such a negative experience in your beginning on Fiverr.

You can fix this by bringing clients from elsewhere to purchase your gig here.

You only have three reviews. If you receive, let's say, another 10 five-star reviews, your profile will look a lot different.

Fiverr is one of the biggest marketplaces on the planet. It's not something that a freelancer can ignore.

As for the rest, unfortunately, we have to learn some lessons the hard way.

Best regards,

Spyros.

[emmaki]

1 hour ago, desmond_aubery said:

• Do not take low-price Gigs to 'help a client with a low budget'
• Fiverr's reputation system is loaded against a moral-centered supplier
• Clients use this distortion as a way to press for 'scope creep'
• Fiverr platform appears to not be the place to use for long-term business - at least not for the moment

Lessons well learned!

It's not so much morals, but very punishing (currently) for sellers who fail to identify red flag buyers and avoid them. The buyer you're talking about in this order was looking for freebies from the outset. It doesn't matter how reasonable they seem. As a cohort, they are simply too unpredictable - and most of them will take you to the cleaners. As the saying goes, the road to H*ll is paved with good intentions.  

Fiverr won't help you here, because the reviews are meant to "reflect" the "honest experience" of the buyer, while the Success Score only seems to take into account a buyer's impressions of how the order went. BTW, the buyer can't see your initial review until you post it (your initial review is written after they send feedback. In any case, it's the private feedback from the client which you'll never see or hear that may damage you more, and for months. 

Fiverr is trying to get bad sellers to leave the platform, and you're in the middle of a crossfire between the bad sellers and an algorithm. Since buyers bring in the money, there is an imbalance that has dramatically worsened in 2024 - but good luck anyone trying to get anyone from Fiverr to admit this. I wouldn't want to be a new seller in 2024. For a platform that's ultimately about connecting a buyer with a seller, it has turned into a metric minefield full of hidden rules governed by AI and humans who are either unable or unwilling to be open and transparent. 

My vetting processes on Fiverr are about 1,000,000% more strict than anywhere else - and only to protect my profile. I lose a lot of business for it, but if I didn't do it, I would stand to lose it all. Morals, kindness, passion projects, all that stuff? No way. This platform is a battlefield at the moment. 

[desmond_aubery]

1 hour ago, sunboatrecords said:

I am sorry that you had such a negative experience in your beginning on Fiverr.

You can fix this by bringing clients from elsewhere to purchase your gig here.

You only have three reviews. If you receive, let's say, another 10 five-star reviews, your profile will look a lot different.

Fiverr is one of the biggest marketplaces on the planet. It's not something that a freelancer can ignore.

As for the rest, unfortunately, we have to learn some lessons the hard way.

Best regards,

Spyros.

Thank you.  

My first clients have been the kind I would probably have ignored in my former engineering consulting career. It seems that they were not overly honest up-front and this only showed during project execution.

I've always tried to give more than a client pays for, but remembered Fiverr training course mentioning up-selling clients, and applied this. 

The problem is that an el-cheapo client can turn nasty in the middle of a project - try for 'scope creep' - and if they don't get their way - leave the seller vulnerable to a poor review. This is really a type of blackmail, which Fiverr should try to avoid as much as possible.

If Fiverr do not see sellers as their golden geese, they will eventually lose the golden eggs.

Edited March 25 by desmond_aubery

[desmond_aubery]

1 hour ago, emmaki said:

Lessons well learned!

It's not so much morals, but very punishing (currently) for sellers who fail to identify red flag buyers and avoid them. The buyer you're talking about in this order was looking for freebies from the outset. It doesn't matter how reasonable they seem. As a cohort, they are simply too unpredictable - and most of them will take you to the cleaners. As the saying goes, the road to H*ll is paved with good intentions.  

Fiverr won't help you here, because the reviews are meant to "reflect" the "honest experience" of the buyer, while the Success Score only seems to take into account a buyer's impressions of how the order went. BTW, the buyer can't see your initial review until you post it (your initial review is written after they send feedback. In any case, it's the private feedback from the client which you'll never see or hear that may damage you more, and for months. 

Fiverr is trying to get bad sellers to leave the platform, and you're in the middle of a crossfire between the bad sellers and an algorithm. Since buyers bring in the money, there is an imbalance that has dramatically worsened in 2024 - but good luck anyone trying to get anyone from Fiverr to admit this. I wouldn't want to be a new seller in 2024. For a platform that's ultimately about connecting a buyer with a seller, it has turned into a metric minefield full of hidden rules governed by AI and humans who are either unable or unwilling to be open and transparent. 

My vetting processes on Fiverr are about 1,000,000% more strict than anywhere else - and only to protect my profile. I lose a lot of business for it, but if I didn't do it, I would stand to lose it all. Morals, kindness, passion projects, all that stuff? No way. This platform is a battlefield at the moment. 

Thank you for your deep insights into the Fiverr client base. I agree whole-heartedly.

I'll let my Fiverr Gigs float along and see where the Fiverr team go with their platform. I see many errors of judgement unfolding. In order to move up-market, Fiverr needs to follow the Toyoda business model.

There is a reason why Toyoda owns multiple vehicle brands:

• Diahatsu - low cost, functional
• Toyota - mid-range, good reputation
• Lexus - up-market brand, competitor to Benz
• Hino - heavy trucks

It is true that other freelance platforms are genuinely abysmal.

Edited March 25 by desmond_aubery

[emmaki]

Unfortunately, the state of the freelance marketplace at the moment is that all the major players are, to a greater or lesser degree, involved in the stock market and primarily see their customers as walking ATMs. It's also difficult for new platforms to break into the industry since marketing (essential) costs a lot, and you need to find both buyers and sellers - which means investors, and those investors want a return at some point. There are plenty of Fiverr users now who are trying to build their own "Fiverr", but most just aren't going to get anywhere, and the grass never gets greener (at least for the users; platform owners certainly enjoy millions of shades of green). 

Personally, I think the best thing anyone can do is have their own business, website etc. and use the platforms to gain extra work. Fiverr, at least, doesn't make you pay for "interviews," but it does leave you at the mercy of bad clients unless you pony up for Seller Plus. 

I do think Fiverr is "doing a Toyota" - you have

• "Normal" Fiverr - unvetted cattle market free-for-all if you can pass dubious approval processes
• Fiverr Pro - vetted sellers, unvetted buyers; increasingly cattle marketish
• Fiverr Enterprise - The apparent Rolls-Royce/Bentley of the Fiverr world (you'll have to excuse me for not thinking of Toyota as luxury)

Confusingly, Fiverr Pro used to be the Lexus of the Fiverr world, at least until Fiverr realized it had been too strict with its vetting and opened the door to many more sellers as a part of its "we're going upmarket, boys" August 2024 product release. Your mileage may vary as to whether going upmarket + opening floodgates = premium services (no shade to sellers who were upgraded then, it's Fiverr's very questionable actions and marketing I am talking about here). 

There are no "errors of judgement" when it comes to bleeding your customers dry at the alter of mammon, it seems. All your sins are magically washed away by tepid ESG nonsense. Mind you, the following may give pause for thought. The plummet coincides with the launch of the new levels/rating system on Feb 14:



If I remember correctly, they were a billion-dollar company at the beginning of the year.... 

[desmond_aubery]

7 minutes ago, emmaki said:

Personally, I think the best thing anyone can do is have their own business, website etc. and use the platforms to gain extra work. Fiverr, at least, doesn't make you pay for "interviews," but it does leave you at the mercy of bad clients unless you pony up for Seller Plus. 

I do think Fiverr is "doing a Toyota" - you have

• "Normal" Fiverr - unvetted cattle market free-for-all if you can pass dubious approval processes
• Fiverr Pro - vetted sellers, unvetted buyers; increasingly cattle marketish
• Fiverr Enterprise - The apparent Rolls-Royce/Bentley of the Fiverr world (you'll have to excuse me for not thinking of Toyota as luxury)

Confusingly, Fiverr Pro used to be the Lexus of the Fiverr world, at least until Fiverr realized it had been too strict with its vetting and opened the door to many more sellers as a part of its "we're going upmarket, boys" August 2024 product release. Your mileage may vary as to whether going upmarket + opening floodgates = premium services (no shade to sellers who were upgraded then, it's Fiverr's very questionable actions and marketing I am talking about here). 

My view is that Fiverr offers a platform for buyers and sellers to connect. All well and good. For this, Fiverr earns 20% + interest on 14 day payment clearance. To have to pay extra is something I simply won't do.  

To do a Toyoda-style model, would require brand changes - product differentiation is very important:

• "Normal" Fiverr => Fiverr
• Fiverr Pro => Tenner
• Fiverr Pro => Mega-something

Frankly, I've seen business failures like this aplenty, over the years.

[visualstudios]

8 hours ago, desmond_aubery said:

Accepted a new client for a low-cost Gig based on his being a 'poor young engineer' needing some assistance

Never do this. Low budget clients are the most demanding, unreasonable, vengeful buyers you can get.

It seems counter intuitive, but a buyer buying the same exact thing for 100 times the price will 99% of the time be much more understanding of issues, will readily accept to pay extra on top for things out of scope, etc. If they're paying pennies, they'll work you to the bone and never be satisfied. Just say no.

[desmond_aubery]

10 hours ago, visualstudios said:

Never do this. Low budget clients are the most demanding, unreasonable, vengeful buyers you can get.

It seems counter intuitive, but a buyer buying the same exact thing for 100 times the price will 99% of the time be much more understanding of issues, will readily accept to pay extra on top for things out of scope, etc. If they're paying pennies, they'll work you to the bone and never be satisfied. Just say no.

Thank you very much. I agree wholeheartedly. 🙏

Lesson learned - the hard way.  🤗

[texvox]

Sorry that you had to learn this lesson in this way @desmond_aubery. As @visualstudios mentioned, low-budget clients can often be very difficult to work with. 

I take the position that not every low-budget client is necessarily a terrible experience waiting to happen, but you have to vet them to the moon and back before accepting a project from them. Because this is so difficult to do I no longer offer any discounts to first-time buyers here on this platform (or off really). Discounts are a luxury, not a right, which I reserve for buyers that I have a good working history with. A properly timed discount can be a great customer service gesture for an ongoing relationship, but if someone is coming to me on day 1 asking for the moon for nothing that tells me that this person at the very least devalues my services. And at the worst? Well, you got a little taste of that (although it can get much worse; trust me on this). 

When I first got into freelancing an experienced freelancer made a joke that I didn't understand at the time, but I completely get now. He said:

$5000 client: "Sounds good; invoice paid."

$50 client: "Before we get started, let me tell you about how this project is going to change both our lives..."

Extremely cheap clients tend to make a habit of over-valuing their own importance while under-valuing yours. I've definitely found this to be true.

You need them and they need you. Both sides need to see the value of the other or the project quickly becomes overly-lopsided in terms of give-and-take. If they're coming at you like a leech they may very well just be a leech. Hopefully this lesson drives some great results in your future though!

Edited March 26 by texvox

[desmond_aubery]

21 hours ago, texvox said:

Sorry that you had to learn this lesson in this way @desmond_aubery. As @visualstudios mentioned, low-budget clients can often be very difficult to work with. 

I take the position that not every low-budget client is necessarily a terrible experience waiting to happen, but you have to vet them to the moon and back before accepting a project from them. Because this is so difficult to do I no longer offer any discounts to first-time buyers here on this platform (or off really). Discounts are a luxury, not a right, which I reserve for buyers that I have a good working history with. A properly timed discount can be a great customer service gesture for an ongoing relationship, but if someone is coming to me on day 1 asking for the moon for nothing that tells me that this person at the very least devalues my services. And at the worst? Well, you got a little taste of that (although it can get much worse; trust me on this). 

When I first got into freelancing an experienced freelancer made a joke that I didn't understand at the time, but I completely get now. He said:

$5000 client: "Sounds good; invoice paid."

$50 client: "Before we get started, let me tell you about how this project is going to change both our lives..."

Extremely cheap clients tend to make a habit of over-valuing their own importance while under-valuing yours. I've definitely found this to be true.

You need them and they need you. Both sides need to see the value of the other or the project quickly becomes overly-lopsided in terms of give-and-take. If they're coming at you like a leech they may very well just be a leech. Hopefully this lesson drives some great results in your future though!

Thank you for your incredibly useful observations and advice. Kudos, sir. 

Edited March 27 by desmond_aubery