The Nuances Between Cultures (and Languages)

[katakatica]

Disclaimer: This is partially just my personal opinion/based on my own experiences and travels. However, it might help someone. 

I think we all agree that with the advancement of AI / etc. - it's gotten easier to close the gap between languages and cultures. After all, it's a lot easier to translate things if needed (or even craft entire texts when talking to someone.) However, that (for now, at least) is not enough for fluid communication.

I'm quite sure that most experienced sellers (and even those who are new) on here have gotten messages like 'hy. help me with order' (and many other versions) or even genuine orders with not-so-perfect English. 

Languages are hard and second languages are even harder. Perhaps the hardest to master because that's the first time you're really opening up your brain to something. Once you know, say, English, other languages from similar roots won't be so hard to 'get'. 

However, until then, things aren't so easy, and part of that is actually due to cultural differences.

I've noticed a pattern on the forum especially - people will claim to speak English fluently, but the second they post, we know it's not true. Why?

It's due to all those nuances that native-level speakers don't even think about. Now, do I think it's OK to lie? No. BUT I do think there is always room for improvement. 

Okay, Kata, you've been rambling for this long, but what's the advice here?

Well, first of all, don't lie. It's completely fine to be learning a language. While Fiverr is an English-based website, as long as you can sell yourself, I think you still have a chance. 

Secondly though? There's a lot that can be done.

Observe other written material and try to see what you might be missing. Something I noticed is that English is an overly polite language compared to many others. You won't see me going to someone (on here or on the site) and writing, 'hi, here is an order for you' if I'm asking them to do something for me. 

What will I do? 

I will start by saying hi, yes (and maybe a quick intro), but then, I will go: Do you think you can help me with x, please? Or: Could you do x for me?

In many languages (one that I'm familiar with personally due to having lived where it's spoken mostly), you often drop the formalities, especially in an informal setting. I've seen people yelling to get the waiters' attention in restaurants, and that's perfectly fine with their language. (they often do say thank you/etc. but the structure of things is completely different.) 

English doesn't work that way. Things that you can skip in other languages because they are referred to contextually (by other terms, like talking to someone respectfully by calling them Miss/Sir/etc. or others) often should not be skipped in English Saying 'help me now with how to get order' isn't necessarily wrong but it rubs readers the wrong way. 

Now why I'm not sure (I skipped those classes in particular :P), but it's just how it is. Saying, 'Hey, could you guys (please) take a look at x gig for me' sounds better. We know what you mean to start with, of course, but it just flows weirdly. 

Something that I want to add is that this won't be an easy switch because, honestly, it's hard to flip-flop between languages and find all the nuances that set them apart. However, the more you try, the easier it will become. And your general English level will improve slowly as well. 

Now, do I think we have to be overly nice all the time? Nah. However, learning the unwritten rules really helps (both here and on Fiverr itself.)

There are, of course, other things, but I wanted to focus on this topic for now. 

(this works in the reverse as well by the way; I was looked at like I was crazy saying 'thank you thank you' twenty times when someone let me cross the road in the country I'm referring to, etc. but... that's a story for another day.

Tl.dr.:

Complete sentences help you seem more polite and be understood easier.

edit: just so no one misunderstands - I'm not saying people from x countries are impolite. I'm saying that languages work differently and while you're being nice in say, English, you could be impolite in other languages. They are all structured and formed very differently, which makes this possible.)

(why do I know that? hm.)

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by katakatica

[visualstudios]

Oh, they are definitely impolite. I get a ton of spammers and scammers, and it's always from a select group of countries. It goes way beyond English skills or lack thereof.

Case in point, just now:

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by visualstudios

[katakatica]

52 minutes ago, visualstudios said:

Case in point, just now:

 

I got two of those yesterday. They were a bit more polite.

Honestly, I do think part of this is due to cultural differences. I understand the annoyance with spam/scams, though (I don't even know how much $ I lose due to promoting for spam/etc.) but... I think there could be ways to educate people. 

(now, will anyone who needs to read this post actually care enough to read it? I don't think so but... I tried.)

[visualstudios]

4 minutes ago, katakatica said:

. I think there could be ways to educate people. 

There ain't. These people are on the internet. They have access to the same information we all have. If they wanted to be educated, they would be by now. They don't care. They won't read. 

Cultural differences? Sure. But I don't buy total cultural relativism. Some cultures are better than others. Namely, the more adaptable ones. In Rome, be roman. If your culture prevents you from following what works in a certain market / context, your culture sucks. If, on the other hand, your culture promotes flexibility and adaptation, that's a productive culture. It will work well for you.

Edited April 11, 2023 by visualstudios

[newsmike]

5 hours ago, katakatica said:

English is an overly polite language compared to many others.

Probably so, but so is the language of business. They are damned polite at the Tokyo Hilton.  The take away for me is that there are 3 separate issues here, language proficiency, etiquette and honesty. 

Language: A huge part of language is manner and intent, beyond which words are chosen. The hardest part of learning any language is conjugating the verbs. I'm still trying to perfect my Italian verbs after years of study. This is not the problem on Fiverr as I see it. If someone walks up and says "Please, I sit here?" with a polite manner and a nice attitude, I don't consider them rude or unintelligent. I understand, but they have communicated and I have understood. I'm not expecting everyone to be proficient, and fortunately we can communicate with just basic levels as such. This works for everyday life, however, in a business sense, when doing business on an English platform, that is a different issue entirely. Back to Tokyo. I can assure you that a traveler from Germany, UK, Italy, Sweden, anywhere can be accommodated to some point, because any high end international hotel will insure that front end customer service people are both polite and have been selected to be diverse enough in languages to handle most developed nations and their travelers. Then there's Fiverr, who looks the other way and allows even the most obvious fakers and scammers to claim "English - Fluent/ Native/Bilingual", when they can't pass 2nd grade English. 

Fiverr looks the other way.

Etiquette: This does vary greatly across cultures, but again, in business, there is a minimum bar that IRL would be observed as a common point. As @visualstudios said, "when in Rome," which does apply. But there is also the reality that every country has it's polities and its barbarians. Rome has plenty of pickpockets and purse snatchers. Point is that Fiverr should have some eye on the behavior of whom they allow to sell here, thereby letting that person represent Fiverr. 

Key word is "should." 

Honesty: This is the interesting part to me. I don't subscribe to the theory that honesty is malleable or debatable, even across cultures. A shoplifter is a shoplifter in Brooklyn, Tehran and Belgrade. I have yet to find a any major culture that does not, on paper, state that theft, deceit and fraud are acceptable. What I do find is plenty of people who try to explain it away via relativism. 

"But they are a poor country"

"They don't have the same opportunities"

"That's not considered bad in their culture" 

That may all be fine, until you find that you have been the victim of such fraud. 

So, relating this to my first point, it is perfectly fine to be shaky in a second language. You may be able to function well. It is not, however, OK to claim to falsely claim fluency in order to mek sell. It is not OK to falsely claim to be a "Digital Marketing Expert" to mek sell. We've all seen the many ridiculous fabrications. Remember one guy who claimed to be the CEO of Fiverr? Yet his gig was approved. It took being caught on the forum to remove that. Fiverr, as a business should care about who is representing them when someone visits the site expecting professional freelancers. 

A better slogan might be, "Fiverr, Hire a great freelancer once you cull through the counterfeits." But I don't think they'll go with it.    

So I end up where I have been many times. Realizing that Fiverr alone can control the quality of who is allowed to sell under their banner. Doing so could be as simple as having AI crawl through every gig that lists English as fluent/native/bilingual and comparing it to what is actually in their communications. Easy to pause those gigs.  Or if they wanted to take the even easier route there is always the pay wall, which would remove the vast majority of such sellers. But when I suggest that, I find even my forum friends clutch they wallets tightly and yell, "Burn him, for he is witch."

So, will Fiverr ever address any of this?  History suggests otherwise.

 

 

[smashradio]

I agree with @newsmike. Being an expat, I come from a culture where you don't say "please" all the time, yet I live in a country where "please" is mandatory not to sound rude. It took me 10 minutes to adapt. Intent. 

When I travel (and I travel a lot), I've always been met with the utmost courtesy and respect while doing business. That's true of Arabic countries, Asian countries, and Nordic countries. If you have the slightest business sense and more than a 2nd-grade education, you should know this, and basic politeness will come naturally to you. 

Excusing bad behavior with "they come from a poor country" or "their culture is different" only lowers the bar and takes credit away from those who, despite hurdles like poverty and a lack of public education, manage to climb the ladder of life.

As both your forum friend and fellow witch, I say, build the (pay)wall.

 

 

[imagination7413]

12 hours ago, katakatica said:

Saying 'help me now with how to get order' isn't necessarily wrong but it rubs readers the wrong way. 

Now why I'm not sure (I skipped those classes in particular :P), but it's just how it is. Saying, 'Hey, could you guys (please) take a look at x gig for me' sounds better. We know what you mean to start with, of course, but it just flows weirdly. 

I'm not an English teacher, but the phase rubs me wrong in two ways, one more than the other. (So, other than being a native English speaker/writer, here's an unprofessional/unqualified opinion.)

The first (and bigger) is that it's missing a question mark '?' which makes the phrase a demand rather than a request. The second is the 'now', which makes the phrase 'immediate' and 'urgent'. It implies that the person saying the phrase (question mark present or not) wants the reader to drop whatever they're doing, that the request is more important, thus implying a superiority. 'Disruptive' might be a better word. It has a similar feel of a parent telling their child to 'turn the game off, now' (as opposed to 'turn the game off before supper') and the game has no quick-save option, and it'll only take two minutes to get to the save point you just passed but forgot to save at.

Time is valuable. Since all of us but the Staff are on the forums voluntarily...

Actually, on that note, thank you for spending your time writing this. I know that must have taken a big chunk (I would not be surprised if it was more than an hour), and I want you to know that I acknowledge and respect your volunteered time attempting to help newcomers to the forums. 

As for your second, polite example, it's better in two ways. The 'please' makes it a request, even without a question mark. The second item of interest is 'could'. 'Could/can' implies 'ability/capability to', helping convey that there's no obligation to take a look, and thus also respecting the reader's time. (I just posted a response about 'can' not too long ago. In this case, it's a difference of 'would/will' than the 'should/may' of that post.)

Words are hard. 

No matter the language. 

[katakatica]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:54 PM, imagination7413 said:

Actually, on that note, thank you for spending your time writing this. I know that must have taken a big chunk (I would not be surprised if it was more than an hour), and I want you to know that I acknowledge and respect your volunteered time attempting to help newcomers to the forums. 

Honestly, the more I post and only see people who are well aware of what I'm posting even bother to reply, the more I feel like it's a bit of a waste of time. Coming from a small country I know how it is to be lost on the internet, so I think I'm desperately trying to help people who might really only need just a bit of a push. 

On 4/11/2023 at 5:54 PM, imagination7413 said:

'Disruptive' might be a better word. It has a similar feel of a parent telling their child to 'turn the game off, now' (as opposed to 'turn the game off before supper') and the game has no quick-save option, and it'll only take two minutes to get to the save point you just passed but forgot to save at.

I think this is probably the answer! Being rushed when offering help is weird enough to start with but the combo of no 'please/could/etc.' makes it feel sort of pushy. When someone says 'give me order' - it feels like an actual, well, order, and not a request which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

On 4/11/2023 at 5:54 PM, imagination7413 said:

Words are hard. No matter the language. 

Words are weird as well, which is partially why I wrote this post. As I've said - what I consider polite might look overly nice (or impolite!) in some places, which is the 'funny' bit. But... I also understand that you need to learn manners in the language you're speaking as you're studying it (we did it in school for English and French, which means that by the time I was out of school, it was really 'drilled' into me. What I want to do is help people who might not have had the chance to learn it the way I did. 

But then again, even though I live a (very) privileged life now (compared to, say, my family), I also realize that I come from a 'rough' background as well. Maybe not as rough as many other people, but... if I could do it, others could as well, I suppose? 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 4:43 PM, smashradio said:

It took me 10 minutes to adapt. Intent. 

It took me longer in China, but here (Sweden still), it was fairly easy even though it's VERY different from Hungary AND I know no Swedish (okay, now I know more. Italian/French/Mandarin I had a base in so I felt like it was easier to adapt?)

I think I always write it off as 'I'm used to adapting though'. To be honest, if there was just ONE person saying, 'oh, now I get it, thank you' I would push harder for my point because languages are hard but... yeah. 

On 4/11/2023 at 4:43 PM, smashradio said:

As both your forum friend and fellow witch, I say, build the (pay)wall.

Honestly, the more I think the more I feel like that would help in the long run. As much as I want equal chances for everyone, it clearly isn't helping when people are lying about basically everything!

Now what I do wonder about IS whether real (actually useful) material about the site IS available in different languages though or not. I feel like once we push through all the scam youtube videos, there has to be someone who's telling the truth, right? In English I've seen some (...and plenty of liars...) 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 10:55 AM, newsmike said:

Honesty: This is the interesting part to me. I don't subscribe to the theory that honesty is malleable or debatable, even across cultures. A shoplifter is a shoplifter in Brooklyn, Tehran and Belgrade. I have yet to find a any major culture that does not, on paper, state that theft, deceit and fraud are acceptable. What I do find is plenty of people who try to explain it away via relativism. 

I suppose I did focus a bit more on fluency in this post, but I absolutely do NOT support dishonesty and do think that it should not be allowed to start with. It's honestly bizarre to me that people even think it's OK to lie like that - or that they don't get caught after 1-2 reviews, but... peer pressure. If you see someone with only great reviews (fake or not) it's a lot harder to speak up. 

In retrospect, as a traveller, I've also only ever been treated kindly (except for that one hotel in France that was a crapshow but I take full responsibility for booking and not actually checking it out properly because 'I know Paris, this place looks awesome!'.

I just wish that there was a way to find the 'good eggs' and support them, I guess? But that's incredibly difficult when there are governments telling them to join fake schools and freelance... 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 8:32 AM, visualstudios said:

Some cultures are better than others. Namely, the more adaptable ones. In Rome, be roman. If your culture prevents you from following what works in a certain market / context, your culture sucks. If, on the other hand, your culture promotes flexibility and adaptation, that's a productive culture. It will work well for you.

I understand where you're coming from, but I do think that saying 'your culture sucks' is a bit harsh. However... flexibility in this time and age is needed. Education in foreign languages and cultures should be a priority as well (but I know it isn't, only in private schools/etc.) I guess the way I think (maybe I'm too much of an optimist) is that if we give people the environment to learn, they will do so.

But then again, I think about how people from my country had the same possibilities (teachers, schools, etc.) and some still never learned English fluently (lol). Maybe it IS about personal effort as well, which I often seem to disregard somehow. 

[smashradio]

1 hour ago, katakatica said:

It took me longer in China, but here (Sweden still), it was fairly easy even though it's VERY different from Hungary AND I know no Swedish (okay, now I know more. Italian/French/Mandarin I had a base in so I felt like it was easier to adapt?)

I think I always write it off as 'I'm used to adapting though'. To be honest, if there was just ONE person saying, 'oh, now I get it, thank you' I would push harder for my point because languages are hard but... yeah. 

Honestly, the more I think the more I feel like that would help in the long run. As much as I want equal chances for everyone, it clearly isn't helping when people are lying about basically everything!

Now what I do wonder about IS whether real (actually useful) material about the site IS available in different languages though or not. I feel like once we push through all the scam youtube videos, there has to be someone who's telling the truth, right? In English I've seen some (...and plenty of liars...) 

 

I imagine learning a language and the etiquette of a country far removed from your own can be more challenging. But I find that "locals" appreciate even the smallest gesture indicating that you're trying. You can get far by showing that you care about how others perceive you.

After ten years in Spain, I was shocked when I returned to Norway last Christmas for the first time. I was taken aback by the many "unhappy" and anti-social people in one place.

One example: when we are at the local shopping centre here, and my son of 1,5 years waves and smiles at random strangers, the Spanish will smile, wave back and say "Hoooola guapo" ("hello handsome"). My son will giggle, and we'll walk five feet before the next person waves and smiles.

Even being in my native country felt hostile, cold, and a world away from what I'm used to here in Spain. My son tried to wave and smile, and people just passed him without as much as a look, beyond a stone-cold iron-born look of deep desperation to not be there. If you make eye contact with anyone, it almost looks like they'll have an anxiety attack. 

That's cultural differences for ya. I know which country I prefer. So I can understand how it can be jarring to experience different social cultures and etiquette. 

But beyond all that personal stuff, you have common courtesy, like saying hello and grabbing someone's hand to greet them at a business meeting. Saying please when you ask someone to do something. In Norway, you would say the equivalent of "Can you do x?" and it would be considered polite. Adding "please" makes it come across as fake, somehow. 

Across the border, in lovely Sweden, you could add "snälla," meaning "please," derived from the word "snäll," meaning kind, nice, wonderful, sympathetic).

Tiny nuances make Swedish people come across as nicer, more open, sympathetic, and polite. 

You don't have to travel far. 

Paywall... Yes. I think it would help. Everyone who is serious about their business does have an equal chance, even if they have to pay. But it'll never happen. Fiverr is content selling Seller Plus. I used to be a big fan of it. Now I'm not so sure, after reading @newsmike's thoughts on the current state of the SMs. 

[visualstudios]

2 hours ago, katakatica said:

but I do think that saying 'your culture sucks' is a bit harsh.

Well, there are "cultures" out there that marry out girls at the age of 12, and worse. Up to you to know if that's harsh or not.

[katakatica]

54 minutes ago, smashradio said:

Across the border, in lovely Sweden, you could add "snälla," meaning "please," derived from the word "snäll," meaning kind, nice, wonderful, sympathetic).

Swedes are very interesting. Many of the people I meet are very polite/kind but definitely not as open as say, Italian people, I know. It doesn't help that I prefer speaking English (though everyone is fluent!) When we were in Oslo, we were treated really kindly by most people, though (but I can see how your poor son wouldn't get waves/smiles back!) I think our worst interaction was with the seagull who stole my bf's hotdog!  It was honestly pretty cool though,  really nice to see a bit more of the North, even though I'm desperate to go warmer countries after the winter here! 

(long story short, we went on a cruise that was supposed to have a brunch, and we had two pieces of (cold) sandwiches (half with cheese and nuts and the other with prawns I think) and two strawberries each, so we were very hungry in the harbour! )

I think this whole 'debate' (or just convo is very interesting in the end, because in many places I've been to, people might be 'fake' to tourists, but they are absolutely EXTRA polite (to get you to buy their stuff/etc.)...and sometimes noise. This might only be people in customer service but... I feel like we also do that, too, so...

I definitely wish for people to succeed, though, but I might have to accept the fact that it's not just a language barrier that is the issue. 

PS.: I wouldn't mind paying if the spam stopped. 

 

 

[katakatica]

1 minute ago, visualstudios said:

Well, there are "cultures" out there that marry out girls at the age of 12, and worse. Up to you to know if that's harsh or not.

Yeah I... I do absolutely disagree with that. (but there's so much more to this whole topic, to be honest.) I don't want to sound ignorant, though (I'm very well aware of it, and my culture, while not so bad also supports (some) weird stuff that I wish could be just... erased (not gonna go into detail but yeah.)

 

[visualstudios]

10 minutes ago, katakatica said:

I don't want to sound ignorant

Nobody does, but I think it's dangerous to be more afraid of that than of not calling out what's wrong. I feel that's happening more and more, recently.

[newsmike]

4 hours ago, katakatica said:

But that's incredibly difficult when there are governments telling them to join fake schools and freelance... 

Which in a weird way allows the people who follow the government's dictate to cheat to feel patriotic and virtuous about helping "the cause." No one needs to go far into history to find dozens of examples of people doing terrible, even horrific things because "dear leader" said it was your duty as a citizen. At least these are just pickpocket/purse snatcher level crimes, because far worse has been committed for love of many different flags. 

[newsmike]

2 hours ago, smashradio said:

Paywall... Yes. I think it would help. Everyone who is serious about their business does have an equal chance, even if they have to pay. But it'll never happen. Fiverr is content selling Seller Plus. I used to be a big fan of it. Now I'm not so sure, after reading @newsmike's thoughts on the current state of the SMs. 

Worst part is that I am currently paying for SP and promoted gigs with lukewarm and unpredictable results. What is offered in these two programs should be reworked into the paywall. I would essentially pay the same every month but actually get something for it. Sellers who don't pay for the access should get "Fiverr Basic" status, which keeps them in L1, allows only 1 gig and a ceiling of $5 for price point. 

[smashradio]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:55 AM, katakatica said:

 I think our worst interaction was with the seagull who stole my bf's hotdog! 

I see you met my friend, the seagull Mr. Breadhead. 

On 4/12/2023 at 8:09 AM, visualstudios said:

Nobody does, but I think it's dangerous to be more afraid of that than of not calling out what's wrong. I feel that's happening more and more, recently.

There are moral absolutes. Individual perceptions don't define truth. 

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

I honestly don't know who said it. Apparently a misquotation, but it's a damn good quote nonetheless. 

On 4/12/2023 at 9:48 AM, newsmike said:

Worst part is that I am currently paying for SP and promoted gigs with lukewarm and unpredictable results. What is offered in these two programs should be reworked into the paywall. I would essentially pay the same every month but actually get something for it. Sellers who don't pay for the access should get "Fiverr Basic" status, which keeps them in L1, allows only 1 gig and a ceiling of $5 for price point. 

Indeed. At the moment, we're forking out more than 300 bucks a year on SP while paying for promoted gigs in an effort to cut across the noise Fiverr made by letting anyone sell on the platform.

To be honest, I'd prefer not to let non-paying sellers do business here at all. It involves yet another level system. We already have New Seller, Level One, Level Two, Top Rated, and "platform levels" like Business and Pro. 

Since I'm in the mood for quotes today, I believe Leonardo Davinci said simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by smashradio