What's your thoughts on Advanced Rating System (ARS)?

[jtengle]

I agree with @kjblynx - I believe ARS is here to stay.



From what I’ve seen in my two years on fiverr, as far as listening to its user base, changing bad policies and making improvements that benefit sellers they have a very poor track record. Their lack of a response confirms what I’ve believed for a long time - fiverr does not care about its sellers. To them we’re all replaceable. Don’t like ARS or the horrible customer support? Cool. Get out then. They just don’t give a crap about any of us.

[ozzieuk]

Reply to @markp: Hey Mark, thanks for following up, I just wanted to let you know I have seen your post and I’ll come back and answer you fully when I return. Just about to hit the gym.

[fayestap]

We’ve been at it long enough now, that I can conclusively say I still dislike it. I really dislike it.



I’m getting very quick to cancel the $5 and $10 orders that are turning into problems now. I used to fight for my money. Now, it’s not worth the hassle.



The biggest problem I have comes from people wanting second takes. They decide after the order has been completed that they would now like to provide direction. It is industry standard to repay at that point. But with this rating system and the way CS is handling feedback, it is impossible to draw that line anymore.

[fayestap]

Also, I have strong doubts that 5 star gigs are necessarily going to be the best quality gigs. They’ll be gigs in which providers are willing to bend over backward to offer revisions and service beyond what they were compensated for.

[mgjohn78]

Reply to @ozzieuk:

Yes if you have allot of good ratings a couple of bad ones now and then won’t make a big impact.

But for those who are starting out and those who simply can’t do a massive amount of gigs just a couple of bad (perhaps unjust ratings) can literally have devastating results. With the thumbs system you pretty much had a 60% better chance of getting a positive review.



Personally i have been lucky so far but there has been a significant increase in buyers who skip reviewing completely.



There is a reason why other sites moved on from similar types of star rating systems years ago.

[ozzieuk]

Reply to @markp: OK Mark,



As I mentioned in my initial post, I was sad to see the star rating as well initially.



I decided to ask customer support a few questions about how the star rating is going to help and to voice a few of my concerns.



So here’s what I came away with, When the star system was introduced it reset us all to be on a level playing field, what I mean is and this was certainly true for my account that previous orders made no bearing to how my star reviews were calculated. We all started with the same level, over time as those orders come in and if you’re delivering quality gigs with, good communication etc your ratings are averaged, so if you receive say a 3 star review it’s probably not going to have an impact on your overall rating, those still positive ratings soon disappear from ratings view when new feedback’s received and believe me, personally I don’t scroll through feedback if the 3 point average is excellent overall. In my experience there are more opportunities for positive feedback than negative, a buyer would really have to go to town on your rating to leave with an over all poor experience, but like I did say, I do have it on good authority that CS will look at reviews that are clearly false, taking into account the order and communication between the buyer and seller. I feel confident that the new rating system will work well for sellers in the long run and help to differentiate your services from that of sellers who offer a poor / average service overall.



The star system has actually been in testing for a while around 8 / 9 months. I remember way back when as a buyer asking to rate my seller with stars as a Fiverr experiment, I don’t believe the Fiverr Tech Team or Product Manager would release a system without collecting supporting data from their tests.



Mark. I have already has a 3 star order from a gig from about a year ago



http://puu.sh/a1akb/178d7bf8c9.png



I had the option of having this reviewed but I decided to leave it, it’s still a positive review and didn’t really have an over all effect on my three point average.



I do agree that there could be a little more information about how the new review system works and I hope to address this directly to my contact. If you’re noticing specific concerns, please can you drop me a note here or in my inbox, I know the tech and cs team are monitoring feedback you’re giving



Cheers

[ozzieuk]

Reply to @mgjohn78: I can understand your concern, obviously ARS is here to stay, how would you change it to make it better ?

[goodgift]

Reply to @fayestap: "They decide after the order has been completed that they would now like to provide direction."



THIS.



I put up with this stupid stuff ALL THE TIME with my book trailer gig. Buyers would look at my portfolio, say they like my style, send the required info, and then tell me to “be creative” and “do what I do”. So I would, and I’d send them the final video - the product of HOURS of hard work.



Then I’d get a huge list of things they want changed, and they’d tell me they wanted it to have this or that look, or that they wanted a different font (even though the videos in my portfolio clearly showed a standard, clean font that everyone got unless they requested something else), or they wanted it ominous and not playful, or playful but not ominous, or that they’d “hoped” I’d have the wording in a certain order and would I please change that, etc.



I had to keep tweaking and tweaking and TWEAKING to get all the little nitpicky rules onto the gig page to cover every loophole and dodge that these buyers come up with just to milk every drop of blood out of that $5 (of which we only see $3 or $4).



And every time I got someone like that, it just irked me that they didn’t ask for this stuff up front. I mean, I know ordering a video can be a little daunting, especially if you don’t know what you’re getting into, but don’t tell me to “have fun” and “be creative” if you’re not going to trust me. I finally broke it down to one free revision and then every change after that is $5 EACH. It seriously weeded out almost all the leeches, except for one near the end that sent me a laundry list of changes so he could get “everything in on the one free revision”. And even after I made the changes, he insisted it wasn’t enough, and he tried fast-talking me into making more changes without charging more.



I mean, if I could see that a buyer was being reasonable or made an honest mistake, I was congenial and more than willing to work with that person. But you can spot the leeches a mile away, and it gets irritating after a while to have to deal with them all.



So yeah. That whole sentence is something I can identify with in a major way! 🙂

[mgjohn78]

Reply to @ozzieuk:

If a more modern system is not an option then i would change is as i described in this post http://forum.fiverr.com/discussion/comment/160868#Comment_160868

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[ozzieuk]

Reply to @mgjohn78: Thanks for sharing, I must have missed your post there.

[ozzieuk]

Reply to @fayestap: Personally, I have changed very little to my gig. The only modification was my delivery doc to reflect the star rating apart from that it’s been business as usual, orders have increased and feedback has remained the same



http://puu.sh/a1e0L/7af7d73907.png

[anarchofighter]

First a caveat. Of course anyone can change their minds for any reason or no reason at all. Though reasons are what make the change rational.



So, I’m not troubled that you changed you position. And, it seems actually that you’ve not decided that the ARS is in any way objectively better than the review system…just that it’s not as bad or negative as you feared… is that a fair summary?



Second, a clarifying question. Are sure of the claim that there’s a “fresh start for all?” My understanding is that our Thumbs Up reviews count towards 5-star reviews for past sellers. Do you know this to be untrue or think it?



Third, there’s one part in your post that absolutely floored me…

ozzieuk said: The star system has actually been in testing for a while around 8 / 9 months. I remember way back when as a buyer asking to rate my seller with stars as a Fiverr experiment, I don't believe the Fiverr Tech Team or Product Manager would release a system without collecting supporting data from their tests.

While I would agree that the Fiverr Tech Team and Product Managers are good people who want the best (I've been very clear I have no interest in the ...fiverr hates sellers/hates buyers noise) and I'm sure they sincerely want to release a system with sufficient data, tests, and as few bugs as possible.

They neither have a stellar track record...and even they had product a perfectly reasoned and functioning platform, they've shown some really shortsighted thinking with regards to implementation and education to adaption (prepping people and making sure buyers and sellers understand the changes...as well as, the purpose for the changes).

Take a recent situation before a slightly older one.

Recently, Fiverr had the "Red/Green" shift which lead to a lot of outcry!

Keep in mind, this change was...largely... irrelevant... (Yes, there are psychological and other responses to different colours which cannot be ignored totally). However, it made no material change to the way fiverr operated.

Maybe the "other people bought this gig" moment and the who is online may be two other points of recent "premature and poor implementation"

Then there's Fiverr 2.0.

You were part of the V2.0 change over.

Generally speaking, F2.0 is about a 55% to 75% improvement over F1.0.

Even when the sought feedback from us, the communication was bungled.

We were told it was a big secret...to talk to no one. I know you know people didn't follow that rule.

But setting aside the unnecessary alienation they set up, solid response to the feedback wasn't well managed prior to the public transfer.

Now you don't strike me as the kind of person who would be like the folk in the movies who when they don't want to believe something they cover their eyes so as not to see and yell nonsense words so as not to hear.

So maybe there's more nuance to what you're suggesting.

However, absent your expressing it more fully, I have to reject the statement as falsified by experience and not one to provide comfort to any but the irrationally faithful.

As far as the testing goes.

I am glad they did it. However, the testing methodology is flawed. Unless they wanted to use the results internally, the tests were conducted under conditions with VERY VERY different incentives.

They were conducted covertly. And there was no impact.

Now they're public and there's impact (even if you feel that the impact over time is small)

Between them being conducted with different schedules of reinforcement and incentives... as well as... their track record, it almost doesn't matter IF there were advantages to the ARS.

It really needs to be removed as an act of good faith.

After all, there has been more outcry and more proper outcry about this than any other change. AND, even if CS was perfectly consistent with all buyers and sellers...and perfectly helpful in all cases...

a) The bad result is front and center until they make the correction doing it's damage,
b) It's a whole lot of extra work for what is supposed to be a part-time opportunity, &
c) It puts all the responsibility to ferret out the real intent and purpose of the feedback in the wrong place...the person without power has to do the leg work so the person with power can MAYBE grant them their relief. It's petty.

Since you've changed your mind once, I have evidence you can again. I hope you do. If not, I hope at least you stick around to examine your position. Because, as has happened many times, my mind can be changed too by a sound / rational argument.

[anarchofighter]

jtengle said: hanging bad policies and making improvements that benefit sellers they have a very poor track record.

 

I totally disagree.

 

The trend on fiverr has been to make things better for sellers.

 

Be it levels, extra fast delivery, gig extras, gig multiples, gig extras + multiples, etc.

 

I think Fiverr merely has had a misstep here and that rational leadership with prevail especially in the face of a united front of opposition.

[anarchofighter]

ozzieuk said: The only modification was my delivery doc to reflect the star rating apart from that it's been business as usual, orders have increased and feedback has remained the same

 

This is a really nice graphic. Do you mind if other active sellers or returning sellers use it?

 

Also, is your delivery "document" required for your gig or is it an "extra" you attach? I'm curious how well it works when it's not a "requirement" for the buyer to experience the proof/deliverable.

[anarchofighter]

ozzieuk said: Mark. I have already has a 3 star order from a gig from about a year ago

 

http://puu.sh/a1akb/178d7bf8c9.png

 

I had the option of having this reviewed but I decided to leave it, it's still a positive review and didn't really have an over all effect on my three point average.

 

Ozzie, do you know this to be true?

 

And if you still have it, can you send the image in your "green messages" show it say that Hidden Buyer has left positive feedback?

 

If so, that's a change. I have a screen shot of that being called a "negative review".

Help if you can.

[jtengle]

Reply to @anarchofighter: I’m not saying everything is bad and always has been, but there’s been a major downhill slide in customer support, communication and now the review system. They’ve added so much stress to what is essentially a bargain basement website that it just isn’t worth it to me anymore.

[fayestap]

Reply to @ozzieuk: I don’t doubt that their will be sellers who will be largely unaffected.



It is, however, changing the way I approach my business here. I’m feeling more pressure from $5 buyers. Not that anyone has gotten meaner. There are, as far as I can tell, exactly the same number of demanding and rude customers. It’s just that I am more keenly aware of the damage they can do now.



I didn’t provide a free retake? Before that would very likely have resulted in either a thumbs up or no feedback because I DID provide what was advertised. Now that’s a 2 or 3 star rating waiting to happen.



There’s been a lot of press given to customer service. But if I have to spend a lot more time on customer service in order to keep my rating high, I’m going to watch my hourly wage decrease. And that’s just not a business decision I can live with.



That little bit of extra pressure and time investment was the straw I needed to push harder on my outside Fiverr projects.

[ozzieuk]

There is a lot for me to reply to there so it may take a while as it’s 01:00am here in the UK I will reply full tomorrow sometime

[ozzieuk]

One quick question I can answer right now :

anarchofighter said: And if you still have it, can you send the image in your "green messages" show it say that Hidden Buyer has left positive feedback?

As I receive so many orders the green bubble message will have totally dropped from view. However with that said,

http://puu.sh/a1miq/e616de3a09.png

I have zero negative reviews, and if I remember correctly the this same review sparked my initial conversation with customer support and I decided to leave it in place but it did not say it was a negative review. I scan all reviews received for feedback and would have noticed.

anarchofighter said: This is a really nice graphic. Do you mind if other active sellers or returning sellers use it?

Also, is your delivery "document" required for your gig or is it an "extra" you attach? I'm curious how well it works when it's not a "requirement" for the buyer to experience the proof/deliverable.

Thank you, although this isn't really a graphic this is a small part of a much more elaborate delivery document created by a bespoke deliver system I built especially for Fiverr that is delivered directly to the buyer with all order details and such like. The deliver document is delivered to all buyer retrospectively of them ordering any gig extras, it has my own process engineered into it to give the buyer the exact information needed about their gig delivery.

anarchofighter said: So, I'm not troubled that you changed you position. And, it seems actually that you've not decided that the ARS is in any way objectively better than the review system...just that it's not as bad or negative as you feared... is that a fair summary?

Correct, it really isn't bad at all, I have not noticed any significant issues with any orders and gig orders have increased.

anarchofighter said: Recently, Fiverr had the "Red/Green" shift which lead to a lot of outcry!

Keep in mind, this change was...largely... irrelevant... (Yes, there are psychological and other responses to different colours which cannot be ignored totally). However, it made no material change to the way fiverr operated.

Fiverr conduct multiple split tests from time to time and test various features with various users, take for example to new filtering system, I was one of the first to report it, most companies will do split test analysis, I'd prefer they did and not just dump features on sellers. I think that the star rating system was given perfectly ample time to be tested and data collected I know for sure my buyers have reported to me the new feedback system pretty far back so buyers HAVE been using it.

anarchofighter said: Second, a clarifying question. Are sure of the claim that there's a "fresh start for all?" My understanding is that our Thumbs Up reviews count towards 5-star reviews for past sellers. Do you know this to be untrue or think it?

I know this to be true for me, for this reason alone. My first star rating was 5 stars, my third or forth was the 3 stars and a 4 star review this dropped my three point average. If old orders were to be carried over to five stars then my over 3000 reviews would have seriously diluted those seemingly lower than 5 star reviews thus it is the assumption that the playing field is level.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

I'll try to tie up some of your other questions tomorrow

[anarchofighter]

jtengle said: They've added so much stress to what is essentially a bargain basement website that it just isn't worth it to me anymore.

 

No problem. I hope you're able to stay...and I totally understand the stress is getting to be too much.

 

At the very least, I didn't want you to fall prey to the "recency effect" and really ignore that it hasn't always been this way.

[anarchofighter]

ozzieuk said: There is a lot for me to reply to there so it may take a while as it's 01:00am here in the UK I will reply full tomorrow sometime

 

Of course, I respect that you answer "at all" more than "immediately" ... Reading your long/current reply now.

[thepromogirl]

@ozzieuk I will say this, as a female that works here on Fiverr I feel myself and many others like @bachas85, @alliemadison12, etc. are threatened and bullied by male buyers because of our gender and how they think we ‘should’ look when it comes to filming. I know Allie’s mentioned getting a bad rating because she wasn’t showing cleavage, etc. I know I’ve been had the similar issues because I refuse do “prank” videos.



While you may have it easier, or a better time selling here on Fiverr I feel 99% of the Sellers here are not. I also have a huge issue with Fiverr a) keeping us in the dark - bad communication and b) surprise changes. As a collective community, I don’t feel like we ‘all’ have a say. I’ve never seen a poll. I understand Fiverr is it’s own business, and they have the right to do what they want with it. But when the community that makes you money feels like the whole thing is one big dictatorship, people while leave. People will not recommend others to the site and eventually the business will crumble.



Your Gigs are task oriented, were as many others here are up for severe ‘subjective’ reviewing. It should be objective. I also mentioned in the forum that ratings need to be fair and balanced. Ratings should be displayed on Buyers Accounts as well - and if the ARS stays buyers should be given equal 3-4 categories to be rated on by Sellers. Have one rating for “as a buyer” and “as a seller” shouldn’t be too difficult. It would really help people understand who’s something they should be careful working with, etc.



I think the whole thing boils down to fairness. Sellers are bullied on a constant basis, and when everyone’s crying out for fairness and something else ‘random’ shows up that the community didn’t ask for, it will get people upset. It does put way too much control in the buyers hands, maybe not for you but for everyone else it’s a problem.



To everyone: Please no fighting. I’m up for an effective debate, but arguing and name calling is not something I condone nor intended for this thread. Thank you!

[thepromogirl]

ozzieuk said: The only modification was my delivery doc to reflect the star rating apart

 

What was that? I'd some insight on this. :)

 

 

[thepromogirl]

fayestap said: But if I have to spend a lot more time on customer service in order to keep my rating high, I'm going to watch my hourly wage decrease. And that's just not a business decision I can live with.

 

That little bit of extra pressure and time investment was the straw I needed to push harder on my outside Fiverr projects.

 

Right there with you, I've started moving more outside Fiverr. I came here because it was fun, relatively easy, and stress free way to make extra money. Now with the recent 'no choice' changes, it's been enough for me start focusing else where. Unless things change, and Seller get more control I will be doing the same. When you don't feel valued, you look for value in other places...

 

[thepromogirl]

goodgift said: So I would, and I'd send them the final video - the product of HOURS of hard work.

 

I really hope you're not spending hours working on a trailer for $5, you need to up your prices!

 

Also, I completely understand where you're coming from. You need to state in your buyers instructions that 'Should you grant creative liberty no revisions will be granted' or something to that effect. You can't ask someone to have fun, be creative, etc. and then expect them to do more work and do it for free when you don't like what they created. You were following their specs. You delivered as advertise accordingly to their original specs. Don't let yourself be pushed around! I would highly recommend you read up on the policies - you have no power than you know in this regards.

 

Be polite but straight forward in your Gig description and Buyers instructions.