Sniping: Why you SHOULD hit that order now button without discussing first

[scientistsdata]

Disclaimer: If you have a large project, you probably are going to want to discuss.
 

Hear me out. I'm sure we all know the drill, you look at their description, and their gig price.

Think to yourself: This is exactly what I need, I'll send them the details and see what they think.

They write back with an estimate, you know, 4 to 8 times higher than their posting.

.... Common? Or is that only me?

What I'm suggesting, is that if your requirements are a match with their posted prices - skip the discussion and make the order. If they honor their advertising, everyone walks away happy. If they don't honor, and they cancel the order, you've only lost a bit of time (time you probably would have spent negotiating and explaining everything to someone  you weren't 100% sure you would go with anyway.) 

The risk is low for you. Sellers are encouraged to follow through with their commitment and stated prices, as canceling would penalize them. Also, if they are overbooked, they probably shouldn't be trying to take on more gigs. Which we all recognize as the project that starts, and you don't see much progress until a few days in or the last day.

I am not at all advocating taking advantage of people by taking an order and handing them specs that are completely unreasonable and out of line with the offer (in such a case, I think that the dispute process would provide leniency to the seller). I am saying, that the way to correct the behavior of misleading prices is to call the bluff. If you think the basic / standard / premium is just a guideline, it's not. It's a completely fair way to take someone into a contracted service. Sellers are fully capable of promising services that are accurate and priced accordingly - the fact they don't do this, is 1) normalized, 2) a bad faith start on their side.

I call this practice 'sniping', which is browsing the descriptions and finding who offers a basic/standard/premium service but has it deeply under-priced. The times I've done this, the sellers have called me out in their displeasure that the order wasn't discussed. However, they did complete the job.

Thanks for considering.

[newsmike]

49 minutes ago, scientistsdata said:

Disclaimer: If you have a large project, you probably are going to want to discuss.
 

Hear me out. I'm sure we all know the drill, you look at their description, and their gig price.

Think to yourself: This is exactly what I need, I'll send them the details and see what they think.

They write back with an estimate, you know, 4 to 8 times higher than their posting.

.... Common? Or is that only me?

What I'm suggesting, is that if your requirements are a match with their posted prices - skip the discussion and make the order. If they honor their advertising, everyone walks away happy. If they don't honor, and they cancel the order, you've only lost a bit of time (time you probably would have spent negotiating and explaining everything to someone  you weren't 100% sure you would go with anyway.) 

The risk is low for you. Sellers are encouraged to follow through with their commitment and stated prices, as canceling would penalize them. Also, if they are overbooked, they probably shouldn't be trying to take on more gigs. Which we all recognize as the project that starts, and you don't see much progress until a few days in or the last day.

I am not at all advocating taking advantage of people by taking an order and handing them specs that are completely unreasonable and out of line with the offer (in such a case, I think that the dispute process would provide leniency to the seller). I am saying, that the way to correct the behavior of misleading prices is to call the bluff. If you think the basic / standard / premium is just a guideline, it's not. It's a completely fair way to take someone into a contracted service. Sellers are fully capable of promising services that are accurate and priced accordingly - the fact they don't do this, is 1) normalized, 2) a bad faith start on their side.

I call this practice 'sniping', which is browsing the descriptions and finding who offers a basic/standard/premium service but has it deeply under-priced. The times I've done this, the sellers have called me out in their displeasure that the order wasn't discussed. However, they did complete the job.

Thanks for considering.

Maybe different for certain verticals. I am a voice over seller. So The only times this occurs is when someone orders 150 words, then submits an order of 300 words. Or If they order a VO which is obviously for a business and they neglect to order the commercial rights usage license. That's when you have to go back and let them know you are sending a gig extra for the add on. Occasionally, someone will balk, usually because they failed to read and understand, as opposed to deliberate scamming.  And even more rarely, someone will refuse to pay the extra. That's where the fun begins.

For my occupation there are several responses, but I will tell you that I would not cancel the order in these cases. One VO artist I know lays a watermark over the file for a few seconds (that says - for demonstration purposes only) at the beginning if they won't buy the commercial rights, another searches the internet and issues takedown notices for sites where it appears in an unlicensed manner. We can also just deliver what they ordered. So if they order 150 words and send 300 words, just record the 150 and deliver.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by newsmike

[scientistsdata]

I think that is fair. I'm looking at things like software development. Some will put in their premium offering, such things as 'complete app, all the bells and whistles' but it's really an unrealistic promise. Almost every posting says 'contact before order to discuss'. Often I do send out specs to sellers and discuss beforehand. However, in the times when I know the effort required (as myself a developer), I take the approach mentioned above.

[katakatica]

Hm...

The issue is, most of the people who have placed orders without consulting me since I've upped my prices are people who order the wrong thing (but don't realise it.) Just this morning someone wanted me to write five recommendation letters (didn't place the order but were close to doing it.) I... don't even know if that's legal, but also - don't write things like that!

THAT being said - if someone can actually describe what they want and place an order (and it's something I do write) I'm fine with it. Wouldn't call it sniping - it's placing an order. However, I also don't change my prices on a whim (as in, don't quote someone higher prices unless they want more words/more work.) I realise that some people bait and switch -  but that shouldn't actually be a thing to start with. 

54 minutes ago, scientistsdata said:

Which we all recognize as the project that starts, and you don't see much progress until a few days in or the last day.

This is why I do prefer communication though. What looks like no/little progress for someone might be hours of research for (or, me actually taking a couple of days off for whatever... Can be either.) If we have built out some sort of a connection prior, it's easier to explain expectations (vs. reality) as well. But of course, for small projects it's completely okay to just place an order (UNLESS the seller explicitly says not to in their description.)

For projects that cost a significant amount of money? Yeah, I wouldn't do it. 

[jonbaas]

7 hours ago, scientistsdata said:

I call this practice 'sniping', which is browsing the descriptions and finding who offers a basic/standard/premium service but has it deeply under-priced.

That may be what YOU call it, but that's not what "sniping" means. "Sniping" refers to an online auction environment, in which someone waits until the very last minute and sneaks in a winning bit that other bidders were not prepared for. Sniping has no relation to Fiverr, since there is no buyer-competitive environment for orders. Fiverr is a stationary catalog of online services. Thousands and buyers can place orders from one gig -- at the same time, if they choose to do so, and all of those thousands of buyers would have a valid contractual service sale. 

Perhaps it might make more sense for you to choose a different word to represent your "I found a great deal" concept. 😉 

Edited September 27, 2021 by jonbaas

[scientistsdata]

I understand what you're saying jonbass, but it's not that serious. It's also a term used in war context, as well as hunting for little creatures on the farm. Ma and pa used to send me out sniping, I never caught one but you can believe I spent the day and night out there yelling 'snipe' as I closed in on them.

In the way that I use it, is more about picking off the lone offers sitting out there in a sea of offers. Because if you find it and get it, the seller is going to realize their position and change it to more accurately represent their services.

 

[creat1vepattern]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:38 PM, scientistsdata said:

Disclaimer: If you have a large project, you probably are going to want to discuss.

^ I completely agree with this! @scientistsdata

As for estimates within the messaging window, buyers can check the seller's public gig to ensure that the quote is consistent with what they would have purchased if they ordered straight away without first discussing. 

If a buyer does decide to order without first discussing, they can get a better idea of what to expect by reading the FAQs : ) 

I hope this helps! 

[greystorm2]

Sure, sometimes "all's fair in love and war" and all, I suppose, and attitudes like this have absolutely caused me to make adjustments to my own gigs over time.

HOWEVER.

Fiverr's layout and extras aren't always perfect. In my category, the whole "commercial rights" vs. "broadcast rights" can be confusing, and absolutely does NOT cover some of our buyer's license needs. We only have so many gig extras to work with to cover every possible scenario. 

So yes, sometimes we do have to create custom offers based on specific needs that might differ from what can be calculated on the gig page directly. That's what good communication and custom offers are for. I will outline every reason why I charge what I charge line by line when I'm asked for a custom order so that everything is transparent and on the up and up. 

If you KNOW something you need isn't covered on the main gig, you KNOW what you're doing is duplicitous and taking advantage of the person you're supposedly working with. That's not really a great tactic to brag about and recommend to others. You might think it's a neat trick, but if you're dealing with someone who isn't keen on letting themselves get taken advantage of, you can only pull it off once before you get yourself blocked, or even reported for demanding free work outside of the scope of the gig you purchased. 

 

A better recommendation would be this: 

• Be polite, professional, and decent in all of your dealings. 
• A working relationship is a business partnership, not one person taking advantage of the other (and that goes both ways, for buyers AND sellers).
• Communicate your needs to make sure all your bases are covered in your order. That way you can continue working together in the future, rather than "sniping" for more targets to take advantage of. 

 

And if all that's still too much, just treat people the way YOU want to be treated. You say you don't like to be taken advantage of, so don't take advantage of someone else. 

 

 

[jayjayros]

On 9/26/2021 at 2:38 PM, scientistsdata said:

Disclaimer: If you have a large project, you probably are going to want to discuss.
 

Hear me out. I'm sure we all know the drill, you look at their description, and their gig price.

Think to yourself: This is exactly what I need, I'll send them the details and see what they think.

They write back with an estimate, you know, 4 to 8 times higher than their posting.

.... Common? Or is that only me?

What I'm suggesting, is that if your requirements are a match with their posted prices - skip the discussion and make the order. If they honor their advertising, everyone walks away happy. If they don't honor, and they cancel the order, you've only lost a bit of time (time you probably would have spent negotiating and explaining everything to someone  you weren't 100% sure you would go with anyway.) 

The risk is low for you. Sellers are encouraged to follow through with their commitment and stated prices, as canceling would penalize them. Also, if they are overbooked, they probably shouldn't be trying to take on more gigs. Which we all recognize as the project that starts, and you don't see much progress until a few days in or the last day.

I am not at all advocating taking advantage of people by taking an order and handing them specs that are completely unreasonable and out of line with the offer (in such a case, I think that the dispute process would provide leniency to the seller). I am saying, that the way to correct the behavior of misleading prices is to call the bluff. If you think the basic / standard / premium is just a guideline, it's not. It's a completely fair way to take someone into a contracted service. Sellers are fully capable of promising services that are accurate and priced accordingly - the fact they don't do this, is 1) normalized, 2) a bad faith start on their side.

I call this practice 'sniping', which is browsing the descriptions and finding who offers a basic/standard/premium service but has it deeply under-priced. The times I've done this, the sellers have called me out in their displeasure that the order wasn't discussed. However, they did complete the job.

Thanks for considering.

You're buying with the wrong sellers. Definitely. 

You don't communicate with a seller to see how much he's going to charge you. That's already explained in their description and their three packages and in their FAQs. If you, as a client, don't read the whole description, the three different packages and the FAQ, is not the seller's fault, it's yours. You don't send a message to a seller to ask them, “how much are you going to charge me for this?”.

 

You ALWAYS contact a seller before placing an order to:

• To know if the client is available to do what you're asking in the amount of time you need it. If you order something at 12:00AM, client's local hour, because in your country is 8:00AM, the seller is already losing 8 hours of a 24 hours delivery. Fiverr normally lets you know the seller local hour, but many times you, buyers, don't read it. So, for delivery times, it's better to always ask before placing an order: “are you available now?”
• Because a cancelation hurts seller profile. You can read that on the Fiverr's Terms of Service.
• To know if the client wants to do the job you're asking. A designer, a writer, a voice-over, or anybody, normally tell you “I'll handle the subject or topic you tell me” in their description, but clients might appear with a topic that you would have never imagined. Both sides need to be sure that are willing to work on that topic. Random example: "I want you to write me an 8000 article about the Berlin’s deserted ‘ghost’ airport in three days" it is definitely something to be discussed first, even if the sellers has a premium package of 8000-words in 3 days. You know, some topics takes more time.
• To know if the seller is still active. Random example: The seller had an accident and is at the hospital. The seller won't care at all to update their Fiverr profile. You would be ordering to an inactive person, you'll cancel and everything good for you, but you already hurt that profile. You never know what kind of emergency the seller could have.

 

I could continue giving examples, but it's easier to communicate first with the seller. You wouldn't like a random client to place an order without discussing it with you first, believe me.

Talking about your example: If you are ordering a 1000-words article, from a buyer that sells 1000-words articles at $50, and you ask him first, and they want to charge you $80, just say thank you and keep scrolling. You don't even need to say thank you, since they shouldn't be charging you extra.

TL; DR: always contact the seller first.

[aggie_n]

I see what you mean and I agree that upping your estimate in the messages for "exactly the same requirements" as stated in the bundle is wrong.

I would just clarify that Fiverr's character limits greatly impact how much details I can put in the description of each bundle or the gig itself. That being said, at least in my profession, each project can vary greatly and can be customized a lot. On top of that, there is shipping of goods involved (from the buyer - I'm a product photographer), so that needs to be discussed first.

I always try to give an estimate based on my normal fees that I had used to create the bundles in the first place. In my initial conversation with a buyer, I usually try my best to recommend one of the bundles that would suit their needs best, and only if needed, I suggest additional fees for any customizations (which btw are also already included as add-ons to each bundle, so they can see that price beforehand). 

I would say that contacting the seller first is very much necessary, but it also depends on the field you're in. The more complex project, the better it is to discuss it first. 

[ozan_erdi]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:38 PM, scientistsdata said:

Disclaimer: If you have a large project, you probably are going to want to discuss.
 

Hear me out. I'm sure we all know the drill, you look at their description, and their gig price.

Think to yourself: This is exactly what I need, I'll send them the details and see what they think.

They write back with an estimate, you know, 4 to 8 times higher than their posting.

.... Common? Or is that only me?

What I'm suggesting, is that if your requirements are a match with their posted prices - skip the discussion and make the order. If they honor their advertising, everyone walks away happy. If they don't honor, and they cancel the order, you've only lost a bit of time (time you probably would have spent negotiating and explaining everything to someone  you weren't 100% sure you would go with anyway.) 

The risk is low for you. Sellers are encouraged to follow through with their commitment and stated prices, as canceling would penalize them. Also, if they are overbooked, they probably shouldn't be trying to take on more gigs. Which we all recognize as the project that starts, and you don't see much progress until a few days in or the last day.

I am not at all advocating taking advantage of people by taking an order and handing them specs that are completely unreasonable and out of line with the offer (in such a case, I think that the dispute process would provide leniency to the seller). I am saying, that the way to correct the behavior of misleading prices is to call the bluff. If you think the basic / standard / premium is just a guideline, it's not. It's a completely fair way to take someone into a contracted service. Sellers are fully capable of promising services that are accurate and priced accordingly - the fact they don't do this, is 1) normalized, 2) a bad faith start on their side.

I call this practice 'sniping', which is browsing the descriptions and finding who offers a basic/standard/premium service but has it deeply under-priced. The times I've done this, the sellers have called me out in their displeasure that the order wasn't discussed. However, they did complete the job.

Thanks for considering.

I sell a single character design with a detailed drawing for X dollars. 

With that information in mind, say that you want a knight drawn. Its simple right? Correct.

Lets say, you want a knight on horse. Its still a single unit. Is it also a single character? There is also a horse now. Is it 2 character drawings?

Lets go a little more:

You want a knight, riding a cerberus. Cerberus has 3 heads. It is also a single unit. Is it also a single character? But there are 4 heads total now. Now what?

Or lets say you want a dragon, wearing armor, has 4 heads, 3 tails, 4 arms, different enemy corpses on each hand. Now there are 5 characters in the scene, one of them is a damn dragon with wings and scaled skin and armor.

Is is still a single character? Does it take the same time as drawing, lets say a coffe place barista? 

No they are not taking the same time, they do not have the same amount of details, dragon takes a lot more brains to design. Can you sell a coffee barista and a dragon the same price? Do you have enough packages to cover every creature combination you can imagine in the history of the mythology, games and folk stories? 

Please dont encourage people to do wrong things. There is nothing wrong with talking beforehand. Ask the seller why the price is more than the gig description and they should give you a good reason. Or go someone else. Thats it.

Edited June 18, 2022 by ozan_erdi

[finndev478]

in my field (game development) in 95% of the cases ordering without a discussion beforehand makes no sense. For small scripts / very generic tasks, then maybe. But most of my orders had complex and unique requirements that MUST be discussed before. And yes, most of the time that custom order will have a higher price than the sniping orders, but for a good reason. 

No developer can do everything. Programming and especially game engines have 1000s of features that all require expertise to do develop something properly. 
So a discussion about the challenges, possibilites, estimated effort and ... price is a must for me. 
Most of my completed orders were customs, all of my cancelled orders were sniping orders. 
Honestly, if I could get rid of the sniping orders and only offer custom orders, I would do it in an instant.

Edited August 4, 2022 by finndev478