Jump to content

Let's talk about Vaccines


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, newsmike said:

You are fine with a regime performing political violence at the whim of a single dictator.

False. I never said I was either. Public health is not "political violence". If a vaccine is proven to save lives, it's not "violence" to make it mandatory. It's common sense.

I don't need to address anything in terms of the US constitution, as that does not apply to me. I'm not a US citizen, nor would I want to be one. The US constitution is irrelevant to my life. The US constitution is not even particularly remarkable, even though Americans seem to have been brainwashed to see it as the best thing since the messiah. It's not. Plenty of better options out there.

As to how to "force" people to be vaccinated, there are multiple avenues that don't really require "millions of deaths", or "get into their homes and force vaccination". Ridiculous take. It's very easy to bash a straw man, isn't it? That's not how things work or would work. Establish incentives and disincentives. Wanna go to place x do Y? You must be vaccinated. Want to get a tax cut? Be vaccinated. Want to apply to a certain position? Get vaccinated. Easy. No need to barge into anyone's home.

Anyway, I'm in a country where nobody was "forced", by your definition, and yet 99% of people over 12 are vaccinated anyway. Seems to be working fine, because people fortunately are doing the right thing. If they weren't, the story would be different, and way stronger measures would have to be put into effect. People don't have the right to go around infecting others when that can be avoided or minimised, it's pretty simple. I do agree, on principle, that people are free to choose. The problem is that we are not talking about individuals here, but of masses. An individual can choose. But if they choose, en masse, to do something that is dangerous, there must be checks and balances for that. In Portugal nobody is "forced" to take it - because fortunately it wasn't needed to get to that point, since almost all people are willingly getting it. If they didn't, we would have to force them, otherwise it would be ruinous economically in the medium-long run.

What you're arguing for is akin to "I can drive without a seatbelt on, and dare the police to fine me, it's muh fredums!". Please. Damn dictators forcing seatbelts and helmets on people, outrageous.

Edited by visualstudios
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

That's not how things work or would work. Establish incentives and disincentives. Wanna go to place x do Y? You must be vaccinated. Want to get a tax cut? Be vaccinated. Want to apply to a certain position? Get vaccinated. Easy. No need to barge into anyone's home.

Yeah, that's more like the kind of thing I was thinking of. Tax cuts are a great idea 🙂 Public transportation requirements. Weekly testing instead of a "requirement" so that not being vaccinated becomes really inconvenient and annoying 😄 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, visualstudios said:

False. I never said I was either. Public health is not "political violence". If a vaccine is proven to save lives, it's not "violence" to make it mandatory. It's common sense.

I don't need to address anything in terms of the US constitution, as that does not apply to me. I'm not a US citizen, nor would I want to be one. The US constitution is irrelevant to my life. The US constitution is not even particularly remarkable, even though Americans seem to have been brainwashed to see it as the best thing since the messiah. It's not. Plenty of better options out there.

As to how to "force" people to be vaccinated, there are multiple avenues that don't really require "millions of deaths", or "get into their homes and force vaccination". Ridiculous take. It's very easy to bash a straw man, isn't it? That's not how things work or would work. Establish incentives and disincentives. Wanna go to place x do Y? You must be vaccinated. Want to get a tax cut? Be vaccinated. Want to apply to a certain position? Get vaccinated. Easy. No need to barge into anyone's home.

Anyway, I'm in a country where nobody was "forced", by your definition, and yet 99% of people over 12 are vaccinated anyway. Seems to be working fine, because people fortunately are doing the right thing. If they weren't, the story would be different, and way stronger measures would have to be put into effect. People don't have the right to go around infecting others when that can be avoided or minimised, it's pretty simple. I do agree, on principle, that people are free to choose. The problem is that we are not talking about individuals here, but of masses. An individual can choose. But if they choose, en masse, to do something that is dangerous, there must be checks and balances for that. In Portugal nobody is "forced" to take it - because fortunately it wasn't needed to get to that point, since almost all people are willingly getting it. If they didn't, we would have to force them, otherwise it would be ruinous economically in the medium-long run.

What you're arguing for is akin to "I can drive without a seatbelt on, and dare the police to fine me, it's muh fredums!". Please. Damn dictators forcing seatbelts and helmets on people, outrageous.

I will allow you the last word, as you are unable to maintain a cogent argument. It is clear you are reacting emotionally and not rationally. I don't wish to engage further in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, so enjoy the last word.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I said this in another post, but personally I simply, just simply don't feel comfortable with the vaccine so I haven't take it. Yet. As far as I can tell, most people in Japan are like "If you want to, go ahead. If you don't want to, that's your choice. Just be sure to do what you can and stay safe," and I'd say a good 99% of the people outside are still wearing masks. I do see people taking them off when they are in a very open space. I myself don't wear them when I take a walk at night, but I will still wear them when I enter any type of building.

I just do my usual basic thing, avoid crowds, wash my hands, and carry those hand sanitizers with me.
 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I was totally socially pressured into getting vaccinated. My family went through a few pretty severe cases of covid and gave me an ultimatum. Side effects from the second dose were much worse than my own covid symptoms and I hated everyone who put me up to this for a few days. Now they are happy and I am happy that they are happy. 

Ukraine has been pretty much fully open since May. We’re going to have a lockdown when the flu season kicks in in a month or so, I think. I’ve been doing everything the government has graciously allowed me to do - restaurants, concerts, gyms, local travel. 

I’ve been aching to travel internationally but from what I’m hearing, a lot of countries like to announce that they are “open” to tourists, let you spend big money on hotels and flights for you to show up, find everything closed and sit in your hotel room all day. I wouldn’t want that experience. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/17/2021 at 2:33 PM, visualstudios said:

 

This is amazingly insulting, and speaks more about the the average American than anything else. I can't believe I have to say this, but yes, we do have a constitution, civil and human rights. As does any other country in western Europe. And I'm still waiting for examples of those freedoms Americans claim to have that Europeans do not. Unless we're talking about the freedom to pay $1000 to get an ambulance, or the freedom to own a military arsenal, I'm not seeing it.

Given that the governments in Europe has physically denied us from leaving our houses at times, using the military to arrest anyone who does without a "valid reason", fining pregnant women for resting on a park bench when talking a walk, pulling scared tourists out of pools while fascists clap from their balconies, made vaccine mandates a real thing and not just a dystopian conspiracy theory, forced landlords to give away their properties for free and so on and so forth, I'd say @newsmikeis right when he doubts that we have civil rights in this part of the world anymore. 

Lots of the same crap has been happening in the US, too, so I'd be just as sceptical if people start talking about liberty in the US these days. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/16/2021 at 6:43 PM, visualstudios said:

Portugal here. Almost the entire population is vaccinated. I had mine, felt nothing, no side effects, just perfect. Now, if I do get covid, it's extremely unlikely I'll be seriously sick.  It's just the best decision in terms of upside vs downside. Fortunately here most of the population actually wants to get vaccinated, and nobody is being forced to. In a country where most don't, I do think making it mandatory makes sense. Personal freedom is a value, but being a disease vector is not a right. It's one of those "for the greater good" type thing. Is it "correct" to force people? No. If I knew I was saving millions of lives by doing it, would I still do it? Yes.

In other words - it's fine for any individual to not want to take this vaccine and be free to do so. But if those individuals represent a significant % of the population, then it's no longer fine since they'll compromise social immunity. At some point when that % grows, things need to be enforced.

So if enough people demand to keep their civil rights, it's no longer ok? What an argument. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...