Worst Day at Fiverr ever! (well... till now)

[misscrystal]

Maybe it’s always been like this on Fiverr. I can’t argue with that 🙂

If it should happen to me then I wouldn’t accept it because I know this is not how it works in other companies 😉

I would rather drop my account than pay off $800 gig.

Maybe it’s always been like this on Fiverr.

It’s how it is everywhere!

[uxreview]

Maybe it’s always been like this on Fiverr.

It’s how it is everywhere!

😃 How many messages I can send before I get banned here

Anyway, I agree to disagree.

[mgjohn78]

Maybe it’s always been like this on Fiverr.

It’s how it is everywhere!

There you are wrong, been freelancing since 1998 and fiverr is the only place where a company makes client 2 work of the debt of client 1.

[misscrystal]

There you are wrong, been freelancing since 1998 and fiverr is the only place where a company makes client 2 work of the debt of client 1.

@mgjohn78

Surely since you are an experienced seller on the internet, you know whenever there is a chargeback you lose the money.

If it’s on Paypal you also know they take the money out of your bank account if they have to.

Nowhere do you get to keep the money if there is a chargeback.

[mgjohn78]

@mgjohn78

Surely since you are an experienced seller on the internet, you know whenever there is a chargeback you lose the money.

If it’s on Paypal you also know they take the money out of your bank account if they have to.

Nowhere do you get to keep the money if there is a chargeback.

Well no, i never lost a paypal chargeback, and in fraud cases either i used debt collection services, insurance, debt selling etc. The thought of collecting the debt from a innocent third party client never even crossed my mind and there would be no way of getting away with that anyway.

All that is irrelevant though on fiverr as for fiverr paypal is not the payment provider for the seller, fiverr is!

[misscrystal]

Well no, i never lost a paypal chargeback, and in fraud cases either i used debt collection services, insurance, debt selling etc. The thought of collecting the debt from a innocent third party client never even crossed my mind and there would be no way of getting away with that anyway.

All that is irrelevant though on fiverr as for fiverr paypal is not the payment provider for the seller, fiverr is!

paypal is not the payment provider for the seller, fiverr is!

That is where you are making your mistake. Fiverr is acting as an agent of Paypal.

They should have that in the tos.

[cyaxrex]

That’s why they are already giving refunds to some of the orders because they know it’s easier to cover than $200 than to lose TRS.

They only give refunds when Paypal does. They don’t care if they lose sellers.

They don’t care if they lose sellers.

They should because Fiverrs reputation as a freelance platform is taking a hit. Most of the Pros stuck around for what? 3-months? Independent review sites rank the platform as a literal freelance career biohazard, and what Fiverr Youtube content and Facebook groups there are, literaly only exist to call Fiverr out for withholding earnings, banning people out of the blue, and being the place for truly appalling logos.

You’ll always have a flood people like the nice chap who just spammed me to ask if I need an ESTA form filling in for travel to the USA one day. You won’t, however, always benefit from actual new sellers who people want to buy from relacing that talent which steadily starts to drain from Fiverr as it just starts behaving more and more ‘yeah we don’t really give 2 f’s about our freelancers carry on.’

Freelancing is booming, new freelancers are appearing on the market every day. Their own market research, however, says ‘PPH here, Upwork over there, free-free platform here, oh, and then there’s this kind of freelancing cult over here where people pay 20% to get craped of regularly.’

Complacency kills & reutation managemnet does matter.

[misscrystal]

They don’t care if they lose sellers.

They should because Fiverrs reputation as a freelance platform is taking a hit. Most of the Pros stuck around for what? 3-months? Independent review sites rank the platform as a literal freelance career biohazard, and what Fiverr Youtube content and Facebook groups there are, literaly only exist to call Fiverr out for withholding earnings, banning people out of the blue, and being the place for truly appalling logos.

You’ll always have a flood people like the nice chap who just spammed me to ask if I need an ESTA form filling in for travel to the USA one day. You won’t, however, always benefit from actual new sellers who people want to buy from relacing that talent which steadily starts to drain from Fiverr as it just starts behaving more and more ‘yeah we don’t really give 2 f’s about our freelancers carry on.’

Freelancing is booming, new freelancers are appearing on the market every day. Their own market research, however, says ‘PPH here, Upwork over there, free-free platform here, oh, and then there’s this kind of freelancing cult over here where people pay 20% to get craped of regularly.’

Complacency kills & reutation managemnet does matter.

They have the bulk of freelancers with a thousand more joining every day.

But we are talking about chargebacks and those happen everywhere to everyone. We don’t get to keep the money any time there is a chargeback. Fiverr is not responsible for those. We are. We are the sellers. We are not employees. We are self employed.

[mgjohn78]

paypal is not the payment provider for the seller, fiverr is!

That is where you are making your mistake. Fiverr is acting as an agent of Paypal.

They should have that in the tos.

Yes their “acting” like an agent of paypal but they are not.

[markusvoice]

Wow. This has taken a life of it’s own. I could teach a class on chargebacks and paypal disputes. As a matter of fact, I HAVE taught classes on both in small business and online business seminars I’ve presented. I have over 15 years of finance, treasury and banking experience, so I can say with confidence that everyone is saying the same thing…but the terminology is different, even if the result is the same. A opinions don’t factor into the realty. I apologize for the long read and any grammatical errors as I’m typing this on my tablet…and watching my beloved Chicago Bears play football (American) 🏈

The variation is PayPal transaction disputes vs credit card chargebacks.
A Buyer who uses a credit card through PayPal (instead of just their paypal account) creates a double “chargeback” risk to the merchant (in this case Fiverr is the merchant). If a Buyer doesn’t use a credit card to purchase a gig, then a bank chargeback is not possible and that’s where the PayPal dispute comes into play. The net result is the same: funds either frozen in the Seller’s (Fiverr’s) account until the dispute is resolved or, in the case of a chargeback, funds automatically returned to the buyer.

Chargebacks filed through PayPal are done. There is no hope for a resolution, so, in this case, Paypal freezes the funds in Fiver’s account and PayPal investigates the issue. PayPal will, or can, also file a chargeback dispute against the credit card company trying to get the chargeback overturned. The process is automatic. Fiverr is out of however much $$ the chargeback is for and our services, or in this case, our services offered through Fiverr are NOT covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection for a myriad of reasons the few are:
The main address of the PayPal account is NOT in the US.
The items aren’t physical or something that can be shipped.

In this and all instances it’s best to consider Fiverr is the seller, not us. The primary transaction is always between Fiverr and the Buyer

Credit Card, PayPal or Fiverr Credit (which you can only get by having used Paypal or a credit card).

As an off-fiver seller you do have options to mitigate chargebacks, as you have a right the dispute the chargeback:
You have to actually understand the chargeback process, provided evidence to the credit card company (conversations, emails, records from the client). You have to know the chargeback codes (we can’t see those on Fiverr), but on Visa they go from 30 to 96 and on MasterCard they go from 2 to 62. I’ve also sent a chargeback rebuttal or dispute letter. Its a tedious process and if it cost more than the actually transaction to fight it, then you write it off. Fiverr can take it to arbitration, but that is time consuming and costly. It’s easier for Fiverr to accept it and move on. There will always be more sellers and money coming in and it’s not worth it to them. Its a business decision. Neither right, nor wrong, but necessary as a business. Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.

Disputing the legality of Fiverr holding or assigning funds from a Seller’s account to refund a Buyer’s funds from an order already delivered:Its neither legal or illegal, it’s an accepted practice and in the US, an accepted practice becomes implied into any employment or work agreement.
On one hand the funds are ours because we delivered the services as promised. On the other hand, it’s not as simple as “since I delivered “A” and “A’s” funds have cleared, then if a charge back comes in for “A” Fiverr can’t take those funds because they’ve cleared. They’re not taking funds from a product/service, they have a claim on the funds of the seller of the product/service. It’s like a chargeback coming in against Best Buy, but the not the salesperson that sold a flat screen tv.

Bottom line: Fiverr has to refund the money on chargebacks. To make themselves whole, the funds have to be taken from the Buyer’s account in the amount of the chargeback. Buyer files a chargeback for a $100 service, Fiverr debits your account for the $80 you would have made , the full $100 comes from Fiverr’s account which is equal to the $80 you would have made and their $20 fee. We as sellers in this environment have no practical or legal recourse per the TOS.

[cagricilara]

Chargeback is the most important problem for both fiverr and sellers. If there is a way to chargeback so fiverr should not accept payment via PayPal. This is not honest.

[mgjohn78]

Wow. This has taken a life of it’s own. I could teach a class on chargebacks and paypal disputes. As a matter of fact, I HAVE taught classes on both in small business and online business seminars I’ve presented. I have over 15 years of finance, treasury and banking experience, so I can say with confidence that everyone is saying the same thing…but the terminology is different, even if the result is the same. A opinions don’t factor into the realty. I apologize for the long read and any grammatical errors as I’m typing this on my tablet…and watching my beloved Chicago Bears play football (American) 🏈

The variation is PayPal transaction disputes vs credit card chargebacks.

A Buyer who uses a credit card through PayPal (instead of just their paypal account) creates a double “chargeback” risk to the merchant (in this case Fiverr is the merchant). If a Buyer doesn’t use a credit card to purchase a gig, then a bank chargeback is not possible and that’s where the PayPal dispute comes into play. The net result is the same: funds either frozen in the Seller’s (Fiverr’s) account until the dispute is resolved or, in the case of a chargeback, funds automatically returned to the buyer.

Chargebacks filed through PayPal are done. There is no hope for a resolution, so, in this case, Paypal freezes the funds in Fiver’s account and PayPal investigates the issue. PayPal will, or can, also file a chargeback dispute against the credit card company trying to get the chargeback overturned. The process is automatic. Fiverr is out of however much $$ the chargeback is for and our services, or in this case, our services offered through Fiverr are NOT covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection for a myriad of reasons the few are:

The main address of the PayPal account is NOT in the US.

The items aren’t physical or something that can be shipped.

In this and all instances it’s best to consider Fiverr is the seller, not us. The primary transaction is always between Fiverr and the Buyer

Credit Card, PayPal or Fiverr Credit (which you can only get by having used Paypal or a credit card).

As an off-fiver seller you do have options to mitigate chargebacks, as you have a right the dispute the chargeback:

You have to actually understand the chargeback process, provided evidence to the credit card company (conversations, emails, records from the client). You have to know the chargeback codes (we can’t see those on Fiverr), but on Visa they go from 30 to 96 and on MasterCard they go from 2 to 62. I’ve also sent a chargeback rebuttal or dispute letter. Its a tedious process and if it cost more than the actually transaction to fight it, then you write it off. Fiverr can take it to arbitration, but that is time consuming and costly. It’s easier for Fiverr to accept it and move on. There will always be more sellers and money coming in and it’s not worth it to them. Its a business decision. Neither right, nor wrong, but necessary as a business. Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.

Disputing the legality of Fiverr holding or assigning funds from a Seller’s account to refund a Buyer’s funds from an order already delivered:Its neither legal or illegal, it’s an accepted practice and in the US, an accepted practice becomes implied into any employment or work agreement.

On one hand the funds are ours because we delivered the services as promised. On the other hand, it’s not as simple as “since I delivered “A” and “A’s” funds have cleared, then if a charge back comes in for “A” Fiverr can’t take those funds because they’ve cleared. They’re not taking funds from a product/service, they have a claim on the funds of the seller of the product/service. It’s like a chargeback coming in against Best Buy, but the not the salesperson that sold a flat screen tv.

Bottom line: Fiverr has to refund the money on chargebacks. To make themselves whole, the funds have to be taken from the Buyer’s account in the amount of the chargeback. Buyer files a chargeback for a $100 service, Fiverr debits your account for the $80 you would have made , the full $100 comes from Fiverr’s account which is equal to the $80 you would have made and their $20 fee. We as sellers in this environment have no practical or legal recourse per the TOS.

We as sellers in this environment have no practical or legal recourse per the TOS.

And that’s bad for both buyers and sellers. Hate the thought of buying a gig only to discover the the seller isn’t getting any of it, instead i’m paying off the debt of a fraudster.

[cagricilara]

They have the bulk of freelancers with a thousand more joining every day.

But we are talking about chargebacks and those happen everywhere to everyone. We don’t get to keep the money any time there is a chargeback. Fiverr is not responsible for those. We are. We are the sellers. We are not employees. We are self employed.

We are not employees. We are self employed.

Yes. They should understand that. In these days lots of sellers complain about fiverr policy against to sellers. They always protect buyers. What if there is no sellers?

I am punished because of their bug and they just say sorry. But I am still punished.

I am punished because of one of unfair buyer. They just say sorry. But I am still punished.

These are not fair. These make us unhappy.

[misscrystal]

Yes their “acting” like an agent of paypal but they are not.

If you are acting like one then you are. They have that agreement with Paypal.

Since fiverr acts like an agent of Paypal then they are an agent of Paypal.

[cagricilara]

If you are acting like one then you are. They have that agreement with Paypal.

Since fiverr acts like an agent of Paypal then they are an agent of Paypal.

Accepting order directly credit card is a possible way. There is Masterpass that branded by Master Card give guarantees for all card details security. It is universal method. So no need PayPal.

[miiila]

Wow. This has taken a life of it’s own. I could teach a class on chargebacks and paypal disputes. As a matter of fact, I HAVE taught classes on both in small business and online business seminars I’ve presented. I have over 15 years of finance, treasury and banking experience, so I can say with confidence that everyone is saying the same thing…but the terminology is different, even if the result is the same. A opinions don’t factor into the realty. I apologize for the long read and any grammatical errors as I’m typing this on my tablet…and watching my beloved Chicago Bears play football (American) 🏈

The variation is PayPal transaction disputes vs credit card chargebacks.

A Buyer who uses a credit card through PayPal (instead of just their paypal account) creates a double “chargeback” risk to the merchant (in this case Fiverr is the merchant). If a Buyer doesn’t use a credit card to purchase a gig, then a bank chargeback is not possible and that’s where the PayPal dispute comes into play. The net result is the same: funds either frozen in the Seller’s (Fiverr’s) account until the dispute is resolved or, in the case of a chargeback, funds automatically returned to the buyer.

Chargebacks filed through PayPal are done. There is no hope for a resolution, so, in this case, Paypal freezes the funds in Fiver’s account and PayPal investigates the issue. PayPal will, or can, also file a chargeback dispute against the credit card company trying to get the chargeback overturned. The process is automatic. Fiverr is out of however much $$ the chargeback is for and our services, or in this case, our services offered through Fiverr are NOT covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection for a myriad of reasons the few are:

The main address of the PayPal account is NOT in the US.

The items aren’t physical or something that can be shipped.

In this and all instances it’s best to consider Fiverr is the seller, not us. The primary transaction is always between Fiverr and the Buyer

Credit Card, PayPal or Fiverr Credit (which you can only get by having used Paypal or a credit card).

As an off-fiver seller you do have options to mitigate chargebacks, as you have a right the dispute the chargeback:

You have to actually understand the chargeback process, provided evidence to the credit card company (conversations, emails, records from the client). You have to know the chargeback codes (we can’t see those on Fiverr), but on Visa they go from 30 to 96 and on MasterCard they go from 2 to 62. I’ve also sent a chargeback rebuttal or dispute letter. Its a tedious process and if it cost more than the actually transaction to fight it, then you write it off. Fiverr can take it to arbitration, but that is time consuming and costly. It’s easier for Fiverr to accept it and move on. There will always be more sellers and money coming in and it’s not worth it to them. Its a business decision. Neither right, nor wrong, but necessary as a business. Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.

Disputing the legality of Fiverr holding or assigning funds from a Seller’s account to refund a Buyer’s funds from an order already delivered:Its neither legal or illegal, it’s an accepted practice and in the US, an accepted practice becomes implied into any employment or work agreement.

On one hand the funds are ours because we delivered the services as promised. On the other hand, it’s not as simple as “since I delivered “A” and “A’s” funds have cleared, then if a charge back comes in for “A” Fiverr can’t take those funds because they’ve cleared. They’re not taking funds from a product/service, they have a claim on the funds of the seller of the product/service. It’s like a chargeback coming in against Best Buy, but the not the salesperson that sold a flat screen tv.

Bottom line: Fiverr has to refund the money on chargebacks. To make themselves whole, the funds have to be taken from the Buyer’s account in the amount of the chargeback. Buyer files a chargeback for a $100 service, Fiverr debits your account for the $80 you would have made , the full $100 comes from Fiverr’s account which is equal to the $80 you would have made and their $20 fee. We as sellers in this environment have no practical or legal recourse per the TOS.

Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.

Interesting post, thank you, Markus, are you sure about the above? I´ve read the numbers 6 months and 180 days before a few times. Not wanting to nitpick, just because it would be nice to know I can consider the money I get in exchange for precious time of my life really mine after 4 instead of 6 months…

[misscrystal]

Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.

Interesting post, thank you, Markus, are you sure about the above? I´ve read the numbers 6 months and 180 days before a few times. Not wanting to nitpick, just because it would be nice to know I can consider the money I get in exchange for precious time of my life really mine after 4 instead of 6 months…

Miiila is correct. It is 6 months.

[mgjohn78]

If you are acting like one then you are. They have that agreement with Paypal.

Since fiverr acts like an agent of Paypal then they are an agent of Paypal.

Their also acting as a payment provider and have their own clearance periods and an agreement with their clients + a privacy policy that pretty much takes the seller out of the chargeback/dispute. That’s between fiverr and the buyer according to cs.

Its not really as black and white as it appears to be, its just that most sellers have just accepted the way it is and as markusvoice pointed out that eventually makes it the acceptable norm.

[misscrystal]

Their also acting as a payment provider and have their own clearance periods and an agreement with their clients + a privacy policy that pretty much takes the seller out of the chargeback/dispute. That’s between fiverr and the buyer according to cs.

Its not really as black and white as it appears to be, its just that most sellers have just accepted the way it is and as markusvoice pointed out that eventually makes it the acceptable norm.

Its not really as black and white as it appears to be

There is nothing complicated about it and since someone else agreed with me on this now you accept it? Ok.

its just that most sellers have just accepted the way it is and as markusvoice pointed out that eventually makes it the acceptable norm.

It is how credit cards and Paypal work. It has nothing to do with whether or not sellers accept it.

[ssj1236]

Can someone fill me in on why Fiverr isn’t disputing the chagreback? Rather did OP even directly ask them to dispute it?

[misscrystal]

Can someone fill me in on why Fiverr isn’t disputing the chagreback? Rather did OP even directly ask them to dispute it?

Can someone fill me in on why Fiverr isn’t disputing the chagreback? Rather did OP even directly ask them to dispute it?

You would need to ask fiverr. Not all chargebacks are unjust.

[markusvoice]

Miiila is correct. It is 6 months.

Actually no, paypal disputes are 180 days, chargebacks are 120 days. Disputes and chargebacks are not the same, even if the result are. My statement was “Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.” Per Mastercard and Visa. AMEX has no time limit and if it’s an ongoing service or the payment is/was interrupted then it can be up to 540 days for Mastercard/Visa.

As I mentioned, or alluded to: A dispute is NOT a chargeback, but can be escalated to one, but a chargeback…well, is a chargeback.

We could discuss reason codes that could extend or abbreviate the timeline for a chargeback, but that’s enough to fill another thread. 120 days is the time limit for MC/Visa. Hope that clarifies it. I don’t claim to know a lot about many things, but there are 2-3 that I do. 🙂

[misscrystal]

Actually no, paypal disputes are 180 days, chargebacks are 120 days. Disputes and chargebacks are not the same, even if the result are. My statement was “Chargebacks can be filed up to 4 months, or 120 from the transaction processing date.” Per Mastercard and Visa. AMEX has no time limit and if it’s an ongoing service or the payment is/was interrupted then it can be up to 540 days for Mastercard/Visa.

As I mentioned, or alluded to: A dispute is NOT a chargeback, but can be escalated to one, but a chargeback…well, is a chargeback.

We could discuss reason codes that could extend or abbreviate the timeline for a chargeback, but that’s enough to fill another thread. 120 days is the time limit for MC/Visa. Hope that clarifies it. I don’t claim to know a lot about many things, but there are 2-3 that I do. 🙂

The chargeback process is contingent on deadlines. Both consumers and merchants must adhere to the debit and credit card chargeback time limit set forth by the card networks. The time limits vary depending on the reason code, but generally… A consumer’s chargeback filing deadline is 120 days.Sep 18, 2015

You are correct.

[lucycodex]

But, In my case of 285$, the problem is Fiverr is holding funds as pending clearance which will cover it up. So, no chance for me

Yeah but this illegal. If I got a chargeback tomorrow, for $100, this would be basically like saying that 2 buyers paying $50 each for their own order aren’t actually paying for their order, they are paying for someone else’s.

I think more pushbacks will start to happen against this now, especially given that fact that this will result in negative Fiverr balances and rating penalties.

Eh, I doubt that this is illegal. The same thing happened when I worked at an unnamed Taco fast food restaurant that may or may not have had a Chinuanua mascot at one point.

Let’s say a customer went into Unnamed Taco and ordered 50$ worth of burritos with someone else’s credit card. The owner of the card finds out, and then requests their money back. Unnamed Taco HR will submit a chargeback and give it to the particular store to pay the customer back.

This means that Unnamed Taco is missing out on 50$ worth of burritos, as well as not having the money. It’s considered theft, a loss of sales, but since it happened at just one of the stores, that store takes the hit.

While it may be different in Israel where Fiverr HR is located, but here in the US and most places, that is the case. Fiverr is not taking 100$ that you own, they are taking 100$ that you should never have gotten because it was stolen money.

For instance, here in the US, if you cash a check for 10,000$, take out 10,000$, and then later discover that the check bounced, you will owe 10,000$. The bank will not care if you were the victim of a scam. They will not forgive the balance, as that affects their bottom line.

So no, that is not illegal. In the case of Fiverr, that money was considered stolen property, and therefore is not technically yours. So if you already withdrew the money, and then a chargeback happened, you have to pay it back.

It may not seem fair, but in cases like this, it is hard to let everyone be winners. Tracking down every single anonymous buyer that requests a chargeback and suspect them of fraud will take up more money that Fiverr receives from the order. Fiverr taking the brunt and allowing clients to keep the money is a surefire way to allow clients to game the system and get free money, and it is also not the fault of Fiverr that someone stole someone else’s debit card. But the client also did the work, and should be entitled to his compensation.

It’s a tricky and winding situation with no clear solutions.

[misscrystal]

The time limit varies from 60 to 120 days depending on the reason:

Anyone who wants to see the brochure merchants get when they sign up to accept Visa cards, here it is:

usa.visa.com

chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf

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